Wanted Dwarf seahorses

[gulexx]

Does anyone have dwarf seah horses. I am wanting dwarf horses and can't get them anywhere. I know the export permit is only 25 bucks for the U.S. and canada only requires their permit. I can't find anyone who'll ship them even though they are the easiest of all the horses to ship and raise and bring across the boarder. any help PLEASE.

[fredfish]

Seahorses are CITES listed now so there is a lot more paperwork involved.

good luck.

Fred.

[CroatianGuy]

I have been looking for them for 6 mt. now,no luck and so far no one that i called all over USA is willing to ship to canada,

[CanadianGuy]

No one will ship to Canada. Besides the $200 permit, there is almost no chance of them making it over the border without delays unless they're part of a large shipment.

[fredfish]

Why do you think that is Canadian guy? I have often wondered why this species is not available captive bread.

Fred.

[Aaron]

CB or not you still need a CITIES permit to cross borders between Canada and the United States. The CITIES declaration encompassed all members of the Hippocampus family no exemptions. Dwarf's (H.Zosterae) are on this list. The fact that Dwarf's are abundant in the wild, and not even close to endangered does not matter. As for a simple $25 export permit from the US. NO WAY!!!!!! You did not get a properly informed inspector.
Aaron

[gulexx]

I just noticed the "newbie" smilies....i think the one inbetween is me...:-0
I'd like to know who you're talking to because in the dozen or so phone calls and many more people I was passed through they were all saying the same thing both the U.S. and Canadain customs, wildlife and fisheries, health and countless others I spoke to. I was told they were Cities, apendix 2 ect. I gave them the sientific name and classification and they all seemed pretty clear that they knew what they were talking about and the dwarfs wouldn't be a hassel. It would be if I was to import from elsewhere other than the U.S. only because the U.S. only has one class of "dwarf" species that isn't endangered where as other countries do and some species are beyond endangered. Please if you have a name or number of someone more informitive let me know.

[jtremblay]

Aaron is the person who is more knowledgable; he's been in the industry for ages and is a seahorse breeder.

The problem with talking to bureaucrats is that they aren't always ... well-informed; they don't have to be. For reference, look up how CCRA has dealt with things like Little Sisters and "obscenity". Often, they don't care what the regs (or even courts) say and go off on their own weird tangents.

My wife is an intellectual property lawyer who does some Health Canada regulatory work. What she's found is that, if she talks to four different people on the same issue and presents the same facts, she'll get four different answers. If she starts quoting acts and regulations, she'll get a few new and improved answers in short order.

In the case of CITIES, there's no ambiguity. All seahorses are now protected, as Aaron said. The fact that some bureau-thingies have said otherwise doesn't mean much. You have to comply with the laws and regs, not with what someone in an office tells you. Eventually, you'll deal with a clued-in inspector, and if you are "smuggling", you'll get nailed.

Jason

[Cellenzweig]

When is comes to seahorses, I would not question Aaron. He is THE seahorse guy! As of rwecent, ALL hippocampus are CITES protected. A CITES permit (if you can get one, as their number is controlled) costs $200, regardless of whether you want to bring in 1 dwarf seahorse or a thousand pounds of live rock. The only difference is, if you're spending a lot (like a thousand lbs of lr, or a huge fish order), the dealer is more likely to give up one of their permits.


Eventually, you'll deal with a clued-in inspector, and if you are "smuggling", you'll get nailed. Then you get the treatment......

[Aaron]

One more thing, it is the shippers obligation to send a CITIES permit. You need the permit in place to receive them but the shipper is ultimately responsilble for purchasing it, and that may be the problem.
Aaron

[smokey21]

I have been researching dwarf seahorses for months now, but I still no very little about all this legal info.

Are you guys saying that it is impossible to purchase dwarf seahorses here in Canada? I live in S. Ontario, and called around to some lfs and they said they could order dwarf seahorses. However, that was just the employees, and they said I would have to call again to speak to a manager, who I will ask if they are CB etc.

Some lfs stores say it is prohibited in Canada to carry them, some seem annoyed that I would even consider it, and one said they used to but there was just so much paperwork and time involved that they dont bother anymore.

So I'm a bit confused. Is it ok if I purchase CB dwarf seahorses or not?

If there is an individual who actually has the dwarf seahorses here in Canada and breeds them, and I purchase some from him/her, do I still need any paperwork, or is that just for shipping across the border between the States and Canada?

And If it is possible to purchase them, what is the cost I should expect to pay per dwarf.

Thanks

[SBF]

does it have to be dwarf sea horses or any sea horses, a lfs has seahorses, tehy are dark colour.. thats about all i can tell u

[CroatianGuy]

i was looking for dwarfs for months now, called lfs and everything but at the end no one was able to get them,as far as i know no one in canada breeds them,and they are easy to breed and keep.good luck with your search,and if you have any let us know how it goes

[Aaron]

Here goes,
The sale of seahorses is NOT in any way prohibited in Canada. All Hippocampus (seahorses) are now protected by CITIES and thus require permits to be imported. The permits that you require are expensive and most importers are no longer bothering with them. ver 30,000,000 seahorses were removed from the wild last year. Get the picture. Big Al's constantly has the dark seahorses referred to above. They are covered with parasites and other disease and will rarely eat in aquariums. 99% starve to death. As for Dwarf's they are easy to breed but you need to have a constant supply of live brine shirimp to feed them.You also need to keep you pumps ect safe so they are not inhaled. I have a very limited supply of CB seahorses right now.
Aaron

[smokey21]

Thanks guys. I understand about the special needs of dwarfs (Yes, I only want dwarfs right now) the live brine shrimp, and I am modifying my 6 gal to slow the inflow and outflow, as well as protecting the inflow so that no baby brine shrimp or seahorses will get caught in it. I am still preparing the tank in hopes of finding some dwarfs, I just hope there is someone out here in Canada that already has CB dwarfs. If I have any luck I will let the rest of you that are looking know.

[gulexx]

O.K
thanks for all the :lurk: info. I still have yet to find some one informative over the phone. Maybe I'll just drive to the boarder and ask there in person!
Can you obtain a permit and come back with them, or is it the people selling them that has to have the permit even if it is me crossing with them?
I mean could I have them shipped to a friends house in the U.S. and go and pick them up and drive them back across? Then could I buy one ahead of time, or how does it work. I seam to get the people that say it's not a problem? At this point in time I now have several peolpe interested in getting them so for me it'd be worth the trip but what do I need to cross the border with them if I did it myself?
"they" tell me I'm classified as a hobbist or collector not retail or wholesale, which is true, but what if my intentions then turn to trying to later breed and sell them from a personal stand point.......?
so many questions, so little time......
I don't feel like getting "nailed" so I'd like to go the honest route, even though it is very expensive. Just are there any other options for a canadian to get a hold of these little guys?
Heck I'd go to florida my self and collect them if I was aloud!

[SBF]

sneak a few across the boarder, if caught, just say

oh, how did that get there ;)

[CroatianGuy]

friend of mine was thinking the same , put them in a water bottle just before border. they are so tiny no one would see them, and put your bottle on your cup holder.

[gulexx]

You do realize they have the authority to "dump all containers" that is water bottles, ash trays ect. I've watched them "strip" a car...remove door panels ect, never found anything and walked away with nothing! I don't know what the reprocution is for that but I'd rather not have a criminal record and possible go to jail for a coulpe of smuggled fish! as easy as it sounds and maybe someone has done it before, I do have several other fish and pets to come home to. If I got detained......well the SPCA would then be on my door step next...LOL :what:
OK so I'm too chicken, but does anyone know about the rules and regulations on crossing over the border with purchased "live stock", or if someone "gives " them to me and I want to take them back to cananda?..................anyone.............ARRON ...........

[Aaron]

Sneaking that stuff across the border is just plain stupid. The fines are huge $5000 plus. You are better off to bring them across and just play stupid if anyone asks. Me personally I would not do either. The bottom line is you need a CITIES permit to cross the border PERIOD. It is the responsibility of the person selling you the seahorses to supply the permit. Permits need to be applied for months in advance. Once a animal goes on CITIES you really need to be careful. This even goes as far as having products made from their hides ect. So you better pass on those seahorse skin cowboy boots you were looking at.
Aaron

[create_a_reef]

I found out about the hides or shells of a CITES animal being a problem first hand. When I bought some shells for hermit crabs that I sell on Ebay and was bringing them over I had checked to make sure none of them were on CITES when they were alive. Even though I had the propper information they held me at the border for about 2 hours while they took pictures of the shells and sent them to someone who checked to see if they were on CITES. Looked a little bit like the blind leading the blind but they eventually told me that everything was fine. While I was there I talked to them about some of the weird things people tried to smuggle. They had some great stories.... they should make a book!


Brent

[CanadianGuy]

Other than the huge fines to worry about if you get caught smuggling, you can also say goodbye to your car!

[SBF]

they dont do proper checks if u cross the boarder from US to canada when ur on a bus, i've smuggled in a few hundred guppies when i was very little, and i know a few people who also smuggle in turtles because they cost ALOT less in the US


if ur going to the US, US customs will strip open all ur belongings and shufflethrough everything..

when u come to canada..
"anything you wish to declare?"
"no?"
"ok, u may go"

[Hark]

SBF...send me your home address will yea...i know a few people that would like to talk to you.

:-)

[Aaron]

SBF,
Don't encourage people to do this. The consequences are huge if you get caught. By the way you don;t need to smuggle guppies they can be clearly visible on the front seat of your car.
Aaron

[smokey21]

"Good things come to those who wait." :victory:

Anyways, Aaron, how are things comming with finding the dwarfs?

[MVH]

Are we really discussing smuggling animals across the border on this web site? As someone new to the hobby, violating customs law and talking about smuggling seahorses in a "water bottle" are topics of discussion I find totally distasteful.

I don't mean to lecture, but as responsible reefkeepers, shouldn't we be respectful of the laws that are supposed to protect these animials, and by the way, why not support your local Canadian suppliers (i.e. Seanic Aquariums)?

JMHO

[gulexx]

I don't know how we got so far off topic. All I'd like to know if anyone can get their hands on these little guys.. Where are all these sucessfull people breeding them that i'm reading in the other fourms? There are several canadains on those sites too. What are they doing with their offspring ect? are they aware that pepole will pay lots for just a few of these fish? I know the retailers don't want to waste a cities permit on just a few fish, but what if it's for a few hundred? or a mix of other fish with them? some one out there must know ......