R\O Water. Can I get away with it for now?

[Jay]

This may sound like a stupid lame, cheap question.

But I was wondering. Can I get away without using R\O water for my upcoming "this weekend" saltwater tank.

I simply don't have the money at the moment to spend on a unit and I was wondering. If I buy a big garbage can "not shiny" and stick an aquaclear filter on it loaded with carbon and a heater and have it runing will this filter out the water and make it OK for my tank?

Thanks for any input

Jay

[ajx22]

Hello and Welcome to AquariumPros.ca Jay!!

This is a common question, so don't feel to out of place asking it! :D

To be completely honest with you, I would not suggest using regular tap water in the tank. Doing so can pose a few potential problems.

You don't know what is actually in the water to start with. If your local water is treated with Chlorine, then time (usually 24-hours) and aeration will help remove it. Unfortunately, most treatment plans now use Chloramine now as it stays in the water longer (thus keeping water safer to drink). Ever since the Walkerton Water problem, nearly ALL water treatment plants are being extra careful. So, if there is indeed Chloramine in the water - then you will be adding that to your tank!:eek2:

Another potential problem is phosphates! We try sooo hard not to do things that will help cause cyano-bacteria out breaks, but adding phosphates to your tank is a sure-fire way to get to deal with the wonderful "Red Slime Algae"! The biggest problem is that whatever may be in the water can and will leach into your substrate and rocks - thus you will never be able to remove it from your tank even with a 100% water change. I made the mistake of not using RO/DI water in my first salt water tank - and I spent so much time fighting every kind of algae, including cyano-bacteria, that I finally tore down the tank, trashed the Aragonite and rock - and started it all over from scratch!! (Note that this was a 100Gal tank and I wasn't impressed with throwing out all that $$ I had spent on substrate and rock)!! :angry:

This is not even taking into consideration that most of our water lines are made from COPPER!!! :eek2: This will also stay in the tank and can pose life threatening problems for your inverts! There are also a TON of other chemicals/minerals that can be in your local water supply that I haven't gone into - each of which can also be a problem on its own. The ONLY true way to ensure that you're working with PURE H20 is to use a good (proper and NOT exhausted filters) RO/DI water.

See if you can purchase the RO/DI water from a local friend or LFS - and if this is not possible, then buy jugs of water from the grocery store (although this can sometimes be bottled tap water too). :( If you do purchase your water - then have it tested for TDS and also Copper and Phosphates prior to using it in your tank!! If the filter that made the water is using exhausted cartridges, then the water is just more expensive tap water and a waste of money!!

***:wink-grin Sales pitch mode ON :wink-grin***

Being a business man as well as a fellow reefer...I have to also pat myself on the back and point out that we have a GREAT promo on RO/DI filters on now too. To my knowledge, you can not find a better unit or price ANYWHERE! This way you can always have GREAT water available (evaporation top-off's and water changes), and KNOW that the water is truly PURE! Using my RO/DI unit, I have nearly 300ppm of TDS (Total Disolved Solids) at the tap, and consistant 0.00ppm TDS out (as measured with an in-line TDS meter)!!

Check out our PROMO by clicking here!! (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/rp-promo.html)

This will allow you to have:
*a great unit at a great price
*piece of mind KNOWING what you're putting into your tank
*much greater savings over purchasing your water
*and much more![/b] ;)

***:wink-grin Sales pitch mode off :wink-grin***

Either way...look into getting some good RO/DI water for your tank...in the end, you'll be MUCH happier that you did!

Please don't hesitate to contact me directly should you have any questions. You can alternately also post any water filtration related questions you may have have to Marianne - our Aquatic Engineer in the RO/DI - Reverse Osmosis Water Questions and Assistance Forum (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=49) as well. She can tell you the EXACT problems with any of the additives tap water can contain, and what is/would be needed to remove them.

Best regards always - and again...
http://www.aquariumpros.ca/images/welcome.gif

[Dman]

AJ, is right on on this one. I did the same damn thing as he did, started out with tap and tossed a pile of rock (no sand at that point). I hooked up with a fellow reefer and bought water from him until I could afford an RO unit myself.
Most LFS's will sell you water until you can take AJ up on his offer ;)
Dman
:spin:
a

[stephane]

The best way to start a reef is starting it right the first time so IMO if you can not pay a R/O you better wait. It will save you $ in the end. Buy ALL equipement you need and then fill it up if you do the oposite you will alway get your self in trouble because you going to find that fill a tank up to your taste will cost you 10 time the price of goods so when are you going to buy it?????

Dont forget equipement is what maintain alive your tank! yes it is possible to do it whitout a R\O but in a reef you beter dont take the risk unless you realy know what in your tap water ;)

[Jay]

Thanks Guys :)

Actually.. I am only going to have fish only with live rock for the time being, with MAY a mushroom and some polyps. but that's it for a 5-6 months at least.

I am going out in another 10-20 minutes to go buy some RO water and get things on the roll. I am going to fill the tank up with ONLY RO water then tomorrow or saturday I am getting my live rock and a couple damsels to put in there. I have 2 inches of crushed #2 coral in there right now and I have a 301 powerhead/quick filter with a fluval 404 with ceramic bio cubes in it plus I will get some carbon for it as well.

Think I should be ok with this for the time being? there will only be 2, maybe 3 damsels in the tank with about 30-40lbs of premium fiji live rock.

Thanks again!

[stephane]

Originally posted by Jay
Thanks Guys :)

powerhead/quick filter with a fluval 404 with ceramic bio cubes in it plus I will get some carbon for it as well.

Thanks again!

skip any filter media or bio cube you live rock will filtter you water
you only need water flow no other filter are require in reef than live rock + a skimmer

crush coral are not realy the best you could add IMO. Read this http://www.rshimek.com/reef/Default.htm

[Jay]

Thanks

The only reason I suggest runing the fluval with some floss and carbon is that I don't have a skimmer as of yet.

About my RO question.. would it be OK if I added the Dechlor which removes chloramines as well.

Thanks

Jay

P.S. I am not trying to be cheap about this, and had I of known that I needed to use RO water in the first place I would have held off for awhile, but I have 40lbs of live rock already coming to me, so I HAVE to do it NOW :rolleyes: Please, if you can suggest a way that I can make my water OK for marine without using RO water after I put RO water in my tank for the first time, I would GREATLY apperciate it!

I just need to get by for a month or so without it.

[surfup]

if there ever was a cut and dried answer to "should i use tap water" this is it

i made a mistake of using bottled spring water on my inital setup ,and boy the head ache after was enough to convince me not to take a shortcut.

[stephane]

Solution first is go in a place where they sell ting to made beer and wine they have good RO water no problem. Dont take any sping water make shure that is R/O water or distiled

the second if you have a couple of day fill it up whit tap water
then strart your pump add a polyfilter to be more safe it will remove any copper or other eavy metal run it a couple of day then add the salt you could then test it for phosphate if you have any trace put a phosphate remover media but mad shure he is not contain aluminium (kent is a good one)

or take a chance add tap water if you water is right you OK if not
you will have an algea batle !!!!

[ajx22]

Jay...Here is some more food for thought:

The biggest thing to keep in mind with the water isn't the chlorine or chloramine - but the OTHER possible and normally present minerals and chemicals. Major things you NEED to watch out for (from the get-go) are Phosphates and Copper to name but two. Once these get into your tank - it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get them back out. Everything in your tank will absorb these polutants (such as your rock/substrate and even the glass/silicone) making it a loosing battle from the start.

Is there a Wonder Additive that can help you - unfortunately, NO. The ONLY known way to ensure pure water is to use RO/DI (Reverse Osmosis/Deionized) water from the get go. Sorry to bare bad news.

A few other problems with your intended set-up:

Loose the Fluval/filter media all together - it will only be a Nitrate factory and you WILL loose livestock.
Get a GOOD skimmer
Get rid of the #2 Crushed Coral (sell it) and purchase Fine Aragonite Sand. You want to set-up what is called a Deep Sand Bed (DSB). This will act as your PRIMARY filtration in your tank along with your Live Rock. There are soooo many nooks and crannies for the beneficial bacteria to live in that you will never need any other biological filter at all!! Using Crushed Coral only creates an area for ditrius (fish poop) to accumulate and add to the ammonia (which is toxic) in the tank.
To do things properly, you will want to have your tank completely empty (not even sand). Fill it with RO water to the 3/4 mark. Then add your salt mixture to the tank directly and mix it well. The water will take a while to be clear due to the chemical reaction of the salt mixing. Leave it overnight with a powerhead or two and your heater running. Once your tanks water has properly mixed and stablized (including temp - 78-80 degrees), you can add your live rock (assuming that you don't have the sand yet). If you have the SAND - then slowly add the sand till you have a minimum of 4"-6" depth across the entire tank floor. Then you can add the live rock after a few hours (to let the sand particles settle). Either way - you will HAVE to get your DSB in before the tank will be able to pregress to it's next step. ((Stepping a bit ahead - I'm not sure if your tank is drilled or not, but I will assume that it isn't - so you will need to get an overflow/connecting pipe and another smaller tank to be used as a sump (I will get into the sump and refugium deal at a later time)). So you now have a tank that has salt water and Live Rock and maybe a DSB. Now what? Well now you have to have some lighting - even regular flourescent bulbs are ok due to this being a FOWLR (Fish Only With Live Rock) tank. Without light - the most important part cannot occur. The next step is the hardest!!! You get to WAIT FOR 4-6 weeks!! Yes - 4-6 weeks with nothing in the tank except for what we have talked about already - NO FISH or livestock at all!!! If you were to add a fish now - you would either KILL or severly hurt/harm the fish due to the "Cycle" that is going to occur over the next 6+ weeks. You can however go to the grocery store and buy one raw frozen shrimp from the seafood counter and put that in (I'm not kidding). This will start the cycle by rotting and creating ammonia. Now the whole chemical reaction starts. Ammonia is present - so Nitrifying Bacteria will start to culture to break down the ammonia - this is when you will NEED a Master Test Kit (contains an Ammonia + pH + Nitrite + Nitrate test kits) to test for spikes - Over the course of the next few weeks, you will need to see an Ammonia Spike, then a Nitrite spike, and then a Nitrate spike - once all of these spikes have occured, and all the above measurements are 000 - then and only then do you have an environment that can house a fish. So now you can go out and purchase 1 Damsel or better yet a Clownfish (they are much nicer fish and get along with other tankmates a LOT better then the cursed damsels). You will now still have to monitor the tank to make sure that no spikes re-occur again. At this point is when you will want to have your skimmer ready to install (if it's not already). You will need the GOOD skimmer to remove the proteins and cr@p from the water if you want any more then 1-2 fish in your tank. It will also make your life MUCH easier in respect to having to monitor things. So now you're off to the races and can start to S-L-O-W-L-Y add some more livestock like snails, hermits (should you want them), brittle stars, etc. These guys will be the clean-up crew(Janitors) in your tank eating all the left over food and yummy fish poop too! :D Now time has progressed some more - and it has been about 4 months since you set-up your tank (you have done your bi-weekly 10% water changes peoperly ever since the cycle completed, you have monitored your levels with your test kits to ensure good-clean water, etc) - and NOW you have a true Salt Water Aquarium!!!


And there is a TON more to know - I have just given you a VERY brief crash-course in SW aquarium set-up.

You might want to drop me a phone call - or e-mail me your phone number - so we can discuss your next PROPER steps.

If I have left anything out folks...please do correct me/add to me ASAP for Jay!!!

Thanks for listening...errrr...reading!

Regards,

[NewfieReefer]

im new and buy no means want to start a fight,at least not one that dosent involve alcohol.:D

the fluval ,i agree has to lose the filtre media.but ,right now the young lad dosent have a skimmer,as he pointed out earlier in the post ,until he gets the skimmer,and the tank has not run in yet ,might he not benifet from the filter media for a short while,providing he watches the parameters of his water,does use the RO WATER,and does weekly water changes,or as they are needed. if his water begins to get a little funny could he not use carbon for a 24 hr period,as well as some of the sponges for different compounds(phosphates).

but keep in mind he well also be limited to a very small bioload,for this period, not more than a couple of damsels i would think

tanks have been kept without skimmers and with the wet/dry filters,and so on in the early days of marine aquariums.the prospects for any kind of longivity were poor but people did do it.its maybe that knowledge we should convey to our fellow reefer to be.,to help him get of the ground


but in the meantime JAY, read,read some more ,then when you think youve got it, read it again

[ajx22]

Originally posted by NewfieReefer
im new and buy no means want to start a fight,at least not one that dosent involve alcohol.:D

the fluval ,i agree has to lose the filtre media.but ,right now the young lad dosent have a skimmer,as he pointed out earlier in the post ,until he gets the skimmer,and the tank has not run in yet ,might he not benifet from the filter media for a short while,providing he watches the parameters of his water,does use the RO WATER,and does weekly water changes,or as they are needed. if his water begins to get a little funny could he not use carbon for a 24 hr period,as well as some of the sponges for different compounds(phosphates).

but keep in mind he well also be limited to a very small bioload,for this period, not more than a couple of damsels i would think

tanks have been kept without skimmers and with the wet/dry filters,and so on in the early days of marine aquariums.the prospects for any kind of longivity were poor but people did do it.its maybe that knowledge we should convey to our fellow reefer to be.,to help him get of the ground


but in the meantime JAY, read,read some more ,then when you think youve got it, read it again

First of all:
http://www.aquariumpros.ca/images/welcome.gif
TO AquariumPros.ca NewfieReefer!!

I agree that Jay could use the Fluval (without media) as a makeshift sump for the interim for sure. In my listing of proceedure - I was trying to quote out the PROPER way of doing things from the get-go. I asked to speak to Jay off-line so we could have this discussion about ways to make things come together with what he has now. ( I just didn't really want to get into full details of this online as I wouldn't want someone else to come back and say that this was the way that I (AquariumPros.ca) promotes. :bolt:

Do note that I do however agree that there are ways that we can make his current set-up function.

Jay - do contact me at your convenience so that we can work this out for you. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

[NewfieReefer]

HI AJ!

yes indeed the proper way is as you mentioned,and it was very well put
as the o/o of this business i understand to some degree the thinkness of the ice you walk.
sound advice in this hobby is hard to come by,i've paid dearly in the past.

[stephane]

Originally posted by NewfieReefer

the fluval ,i agree has to lose the filtre media.but ,right now the young lad dosent have a skimmer,as he pointed out earlier in the post ,until he gets the skimmer,and the tank has not run in yet ,might he not benifet from the filter media for a short while,

Nope filter media are realy not require even if he have no skimmer
there a big diference in a skimmer and filter media and there no way a filter media will do even a small part off a skimmer job the only way filter media will help him is if he clean it at least once a week but never alow the filter media to become a biological fitlter
other than that will be more detrimental and only a nitrate factory

[Jay]

Hey AJ

You've got mail :drunk:

[Jay]

Hey Steph.

That's what I planned, was to clean it every 2 weeks "as what my book says"

As I explained to AJ in my email to him.. there are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many mixed opinions it's driving me nuts. My book even says I can use tap water for myt marine tank. I also talked with a guy that knows his stuff about salt, and he has used tap water for 10 years!

So after thinking about it, I said.. hey! I am going to do a test right now on my city water.

I tested for po4,no3 and no2 and they were all ZERO :dance:

the only test that had a very very slight "not even a reading" was my po4 and it wasnt even close to 0.025 on my chart. so I guess I am one of the lucky ones to have better water.

And with the crushed coral.. more mixed opinions on that. I read on my book that a 3 inch bed of anything is good. and that star pods and micro worms and all the other little critters make their home only 1 1/2cm-2 cm into the bed.

I forget who said it, but you said that crushed coral is a fish poop bed. well. I have a python gravel cleaner and I will clean the gravel every 2 weeks to insure everything is good in that way of things.

Like told AJ, I've been into freshwater fish keeping for 13 years. I know it's not the exact same as marine, but the basic's are.. I do know how a tank cycle works "longer for marine I know" and when to do water changes etc etc. So I am not a compelete newbie to the aquarium hobby :)

Thanks again !

Jay

[Jay]

I worked out a deal with a member of another forum and I am going to be getting some argonite sand.. DSB here I come :cheers: So I will take out my crushed coral and lay the sand and put the crushed coral ontop, would that be ok? I don't really want to throw it out as I spend 35 bucks on the stuff
:idea:

Jay

[stephane]

I dont tink so crush coral is to sharp because it's crush and will not maintain the beneficial fauna that a DSB need to fonction properly ask Dr Ron http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=40 but I already know what he will told you and IMO
he know is stuff realy well maybe you could mix a small part 10%
whith the aragonite but if I were you I trow it out and 35$ dont wort a crash risk IMO

As for you book recomend tap water :confused: I dont know how
an autor could recomend this for a reef tank! a fish tank ok but even there municipality who have so bad water that you could only put gold fish in :D so it's a very bad advice IMO

What book do you have and in what years he have been edit?

[Jay]

Well.. they don't lie, and neather would my old boss eather :smoke:

The book I got this information from is called The Tropical Marine Fish Survival Manual by Gordon Kay. Excellent book!

This is the book here

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0812093720/ref%3Dnosim/planetpetsA/104-6770390-9451909

[ajx22]

The biggest thing to keep in mind with articles in print - is that 90% + is now outdated. There are MANY good books out there profiling animals and how to keep a tank - and 99% of them are good for a referance manual, but very few are new enough to cover the newer topics. Read, Read & Read some more...but take it all with a grain of salt and then come to places like this and TALK to people who have been in the hobby for years and have real hands-on experience.

We as humans actually know MORE about outer space then we know about our own oceans - but this is starting to change. We are learning more and more as the days progress about the substance that covers the majority of our planet - but we still have a LONG way to go yet.

Remember - you will always get a TON of mixed opinions with anything. Just take what you can from the mass - and try to use it constructively. Honestly - you will be able to take more from a well read and educated long-term hobbiest then you will ever get from reading a single super-advanced book.

By learing from the real hobbiest - they have read them all, tried it all, and fallen on their own faces again and again - Learn from other peoples experiences...You'll save yourself money and the pain of falling as often.

Jay - You have mail! :D

[stephane]

:hail: welll said AJ good to see your back on track because we not realy heard of you often this time busy? :D

What about a update on your new tank???? Did you full it off life stuff$$$$$$$ We want pic:jumpin: :jumpin:

[Jay]

Thanks again AJ!

You Da Man!


You have mail :grinch:

[ajx22]

Originally posted by stephane
:hail: welll said AJ good to see your back on track because we not realy heard of you often this time busy? :D

What about a update on your new tank???? Did you full it off life stuff$$$$$$$ We want pic:jumpin: :jumpin:

Click the link at the bottom of my signature tag for NEW pics!!!


Jay - No problem at all. Glad I can be of some help!! :wave: :thumbsup:

[Jay]

Well all the crushed coral is out. nothing in it except a 7 1/2lb base rock with some purple algae on it and some other little interesting worm like things that are fixed to it.

g2g get me some shrimps :blob2:

[ajx22]

Originally posted by Jay
Well all the crushed coral is out. nothing in it except a 7 1/2lb base rock with some purple algae on it and some other little interesting worm like things that are fixed to it.

g2g get me some shrimps :blob2:

Sounds good thus far...

I forgot to mention...you should use a RAW frozen shrimp rather then a cooked frozen one if possible. I think that you knew that, but just wanted to make sure.

Congrat's on the first steps to have a little piece of the ocean in your house!!!

Cheers and HAPPY LONG WEEKEND!!!

[Jay]

You to AJ :)

Hey, this rock that I got has some fine stringy algae growing on it. I would think that it's hair algae.. is this bad? will it go away?

Other then that, just waiting for a guy to hook me up with some fiji live rock and some argonite sand =)