Silicates

[McQ]

Why is everyone looking for Southdown or other tropical sands for their DSBs? What is so bad with the silica based sands around here? Will not the same critters live in a sand bed that is built with silica sand as an aragonite based sand bed (provided it is seeded with live sand of course)? :confused:

[afss]

I'm not sure if this is right, so correct me if i am wrong. I believe that you can use silicate based sand. The problem lies in the fact that diatoms (diatom algea blooms) use silicates in their life cycles. The more silicates you have in your tank, the more the possibility of a bloom, or a continuous bloom is. The advantage to using a calcium based sand is that it can add to the buffering abilities of the tank, and although small and probably insignificant, as it disolves calcium and other trace elements are released into the water for inverts etc.
I am sure there are longerwinded more scientific explanations for the resons, but i think that is what it boils down too.

Scott

[McQ]

Are there diatom eating animals or filters available that will handle the diatoms? Buffering agents can be added to the tank that will rival the calcium based sands. I wonder how these algaes use the silica in the sand i.e. how do they break it down so that they can utilize it. Is there anything we can do to the silica (boiling, caustic or acid baths, etc) that would discourage diatoms? Seems a shame that all this sand around here can't be used in our tanks!

[afss]

I am not sure if there is any thing that could be done to the sand. I know that boiling wouldn't do anything to it. Basically the sand is Silica sand and thats where the silicates come from. I personaly wouldn't use anything on the sand such as acid etc.. there would surely be remnants of it transfered to the tank. On top of that the time and cost would probably be inhibative and also in the end you would still be left with silica sand, can't beat chemistry :rolleyes:
Not trying to knock your idea, I often try to do things against popular opinion, and i wish you luck in finding an option to make it work.
On the plus side i have heard of people who do use silica based sands and they claim they work great. I know if i still lived in the maritimes i would set up a small trial tank with some sand straight from the beach.

If you have the ability to get over to the states you should call around to some of the homedepots and see if any of them have the south down. Some don't like it, but i have no problems with it. If you aren't in a rush for it i can probably get some for you next time i go over to the states, but it may be till dec before i make it to the maritimes again.
Scott

[McQ]

Thks for the offer Scott. I do live next to the US border but it is rural Maine and they are in the same boat as I am when it comes to product availability. I was just hoping I might get a favorable response to my post but I think I knew from all the people looking for Southdown that there was no use for silica. Maybe I could by like my kids and keep asking people the same question till I get the answer I like.;)

Thanks again

Mike

[afss]

I think that you probably can use silicas with little to no problems as long as the rest of your system is top grade, and you are very carefull.. and really all diatom blooms that i have had are little more than a PITA as you have to clean the glass more etc.

What about the bangor region.. or even if you have a truck driver friend that passes through this area.. I could pick it up and drop it to someone near the highway.. I get stuff that way on ocassion.. have a couple of friends who drive truck, but none of them ever make it down that way when i need anything. My parents may be making a trip up here in august, and i am sure they would be willing to drop some off on their way through if you don't have any by then.. how many lbs do you need?
Scott

Scott

[McQ]

I do know a long haul trucker that goes up that way quite a bit. I could ask him but I imagine the logistics would be a nightmare to work out. He doesn't usually know where he is going from one drop-off to the next till he gets there (if that makes sense).

As for the amount I'm looking for ... I don't know yet. I picked up 200 lbs of CaribSea aragonite last Feb while in Florida. I was planning on making some aragocrete base rock with it and seeding it with 50 lbs or so of LR. Now all I read about is DSB and am thinking I should use it for that. I would still need 100 lbs more though according to all the calcs. But then I would have to buy all my LR. Decisions ... decisions.

I'm not in any great hurry as I am still gathering pieces for this set-up. I wanted it to be ready to put together next fall. If I can't find any tropical sand (or don't get the answer to this post I'm looking for ;) ) I might just take you up on your generous offer.

Thanks

Mike

[afss]

If i were you i'd use the carib sea for the sand.. and go across the river in fredericton to the co-op. They should have, or be able to get, crushed oyster shells. From what i have read the crushed oyseter shells will give you the most porous rock. I have 4 bags of it sitting waiting till i get of my lazzy... and get around to making some myself. I think the shells cost me 8 bucks or so a 50 lb bag.
here is a link to a recent thread on another board with a few people talking about the oyster shells. Again if you can't find these then let me know.
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85489

as for the long haul trucker you could always just give him my number and the next time he is going through the area he could give me a call from the border crossing.. I could be at the timmys by the highway by the time he came through.. as long as it wasn't at 1 in the morning or something. I have also left packages at truck stops for my friends to pick up and take with them... not too many other people are going to claim the bags of sand are for them, and even if some one did its only a few bucks



Scott

[McQ]

Good idea. The oyster shells that is. Will any shells work? Down here I should have no problem getting lobster, clam, and muscle shells. I have Monday off so I think I'll hit the phone. I'll let you know how I've made out.

Mike

[afss]

I would think that any shell would work... the only advantage to the oyster shelss that i can see is that they are already crushed, they are cheap, they have been washed (no stink) and you can get them bagged at the co-op. The crushed oyster shells are used as feed or something for chickens etc. Thats why the co-op should have it or know where to get it

Scott

[McQ]

I was wondering about the smell. I worked at the pulp and paper mill in Miramichi where we tried an experiment adding pulverized lobster shells to the paper. I can't remember why right off but I do recall the stench. I think they used this paper in some magazines that had scratch and sniff perfume pages:laugh:

Again, I'll check around tomorrow.

Thks
Mike

[afss]

Mhhhhhhhh
Scratch and sniff lobster
:puke:

:D

[McQ]

Just couldn't wait to use that new smile could ya;)

[afss]

You gota like these new smilies
:clap: :jam:

[StirCrazy]

Crushed oyster shells would not be a good choice IMHO, the arre to large of a size for a good deep sand bed and they are also very high in phosphates. if you read up on bi-valve shells and such for some reason they soak up phosphates and store them in there shells. is there enuf phosphate in the shells to cause a problem??? I am not sure but why take a chance.

a few months ago I was going to use dolomite for my DSB and I realy started looking into it.. the factor that finaly made me decide to buy good old sugar sand was the un-natural look of the dolomite (very white, almost looked like paint) and the fact that it went a little to mud like (almost like a clay) after a while.

now I have 11 bags of carb sea (bought a few at a time) and I don't regret it at all.

if you want to save money, I would go with a 100% silica based sand with a average mesh size of about 80. and don't worry about the "carb sea will buffer your tank" argument.. it does but not near enuf.. when the side by side tests were done the silica sand tank ph crashed after 1 month and the sugar sand tank ceashed after 2 months.. so either way you are going to be adding bufferes so it won't matter. the "diatom" myth is just that also.. if you look it up diatoms use "free silica" and silica sand has no free silica in itit is all quarts (just silica based) this is not soluable in water so it can't feed diatoms. think about it your tank is Glass :) I used silica sand in fish only tank for many years and never had a diatom outbreak.

Just my $0.02
Steve

[afss]

thanks for the info on silica and diatoms.

We weren't talking about using crushed oyster for the DSB, but for home made rock. There maybe phosphates in them, but i know otheres have used it with no complaints as of yet. Maybe the large portion of the phospates is leached out during the curing cycle while you get the ph of the rock down to an acceptable level
Scott

[McQ]

Thanks Stir. That is just the answer I was looking for.