Substrate Options

[maimz]

What is the best substrate for a beginner..i noticed that someone mentioned about southdown being really fine and has some issues that may want to be looked at before purchasing it..thanks..

[ajx22]

Originally posted by maimz
What is the best substrate for a beginner..i noticed that someone mentioned about southdown being really fine and has some issues that may want to be looked at before purchasing it..thanks..

SD is fine...but it's the grain size you want for a DSB.

I just got done putting 25 bags of Caribsea Arag-Alive Fiji Pink sand, as well as 2 bags of Caribsea Oolite sand and 2 bags of Nature's Ocean reef sand into my new 220Gal tank.

I still need some more sand for the tank (another 60-100lbs) and then some more for the refugium. Only putting about 3" in the refugium as I will be adding 20-40lbs of Miracle Mud too.

Substrate is your choice...I would suggest a DSB - using a good quality Reef Grade sand as per Dr. Ron Shimek's direction.

[ajx22]

This is the Live Sand I used...25 bags so far!!!

[afss]

I poersonally have been using South down. The main reason I use it is due to the cost. I have heard/read that it has some of the best grain size that you can use for a DSB. I know of many people who use it succesfully, and haven't heard anything bad about it yet (substantiated) aside from the fact that it takes a week or so to settle out unless you seed it with a bit of live sand from another source.
I have heard that the SD might be stored with fertilizer at the source etc. To me this doesn't matter as long as you are using it in a newly set up tank. Fertlizer is just nitrates and phosphates, both of witch will be removed during the cycle and through the use of the DSB. I figure if its being sold for use in a childs play box it can't be overly contaminated.
I would have my doubts about adding it to an existing setup, but I wouldn't want to add mass quantities of anything to an existing setup... Just not a good idea to add a lot of anything at once once you have fish and corals etc in the tank. If you were to be starting a new tank and moving existing stock to it you should wait for the cycle to kick of in then new tank anywya, so again that would minimize problems with fertalizer etc.
JMO
Scott

[Brian L]

SD sand has the advantage of being inexpensive and it will accomodate our sand friends, but IMO you cannot beat the wet sand. You don't have to use all LS, nor do you have to add it all at once. Add sone fine Aragonite and add LS to seed it. Top it with plenty of LR and the sand bed won't even be a factor for months. Add to it as a budget allows.

South Down is OK, but it's not all the rave except that we can afford it. It's messy (not only on introduction) and impossible to add to increase the depth of a DSB.

[afss]

Why can't SD beat the wet sand?

From what i have been told by many is that the wet sand you buy in the bags only has the advantage of having the bacteria in it.. which should establish itself in the southdown with in days if not a week. From what i have understood is that there are no creatures to speak of in the wet sand.. that is unless you are talking about straight from the ocean live sand.

Scott

[Brian L]

Exactly,

It's not the creatures that balance a system, it's the bacteria. Thing is, with the wet sand, you add clean ocean sand without the dust of a dry fine sand. You can add 20 lbs at a time, and not even see a change except that the skimmer may go a little crazy.

You're right. No free worms or pods, but Live Sand takes a ton of the guess work out of a system just by knowing its "fortified with vitimins."

I brought one essential ingredient home with me when I moved back from Jersey - a bag of LS.

[afss]

Actually from what i understand its the critters in the sand that keep the bed live.. the bacteria does the job of denitrating, but with out the criters to clean, stir the bed it won't do well over time. Also its the "dust" that helps to make a DSB work better.
As far as the bacteria in the wet sand... it will establish itself in the sd very rapidly and become the same thing as is in the wet bag.. only difference is a bit of time. If you are adding the sand to an existing system then i would probably go with the wet sand, or "cure" the southdown in a seperate container. If you are adding it to an new setup then in no way should it effect the cycle etc aside from maybe a few days of extra waiting. If you can't wait a few days in this hobby then you are going to be in for some major upsets down the road.

[Brian L]

Maybe we're beating a dead horse here but lets be clear.

On the sand, sure; on a new system a DSB of sand (oolite, aragonite, SD- or whatever) seeded with sand from a friend, LFS, or wet sand will work. The "fines" in SD are considered to closely resemble the ocean floor, so it would seem logical to use it. I personally don't see a problem with the grain size of fine aragonite either and find that it stays in place much better. Many people get frustrated by the sand storms created by SD. Even if it was- as you say- "cured" in a separate container, the fines will just re-suspend anyway. Personal preference, I guess.

As far as the chemistry of a DSB; regardless of what sand you use it will not happen in a week. A functional DSB can take considerably longer because it has to develop an anaerobic zone in the lower portion of the tank. Thats why it must be deep. As for the 'function'of a DSB, you're kind of right. The only purpose is denitrification and this is why we use them. The clean up crew is necessary to clean the scraps but it does not directly participate in the denitrification process so it doesn't make a sand bed 'live'. It is also not the purpose of the clean-up crew to 'stir' the bed. Sure, it happens to some degree and this subtle movement is good for the aerobic layer, but the key to a DSB is what happens well below the reach of the crew. This area should never be stirred. Splitting hairs, I guess but my 2 anyway.

[maimz]

just thought that i would mention that canadian tire now sells playbox sand...the finer details i am unsure of but it might be similar to southdown..just a heads up..

[mojoreef]

Great debate. Personally I would use the dead SD and/or Pure Argonite sand for the first 5 inches of my bed then add a 1 inch layer of live sand to activate the balance. As the bacteria forms around the sand particles they will gain and weight and even when stired will fall back quickly. With the use of SD I always suggest that you run a magnet through the sand to remove any metal particles left over from minning or loading.
With the comments about the sand sifting critters I have to disagree with you. YOur sand sifter (ie: mini stars, worms, pods, micro snails, micro hermits, clams) form an intrical part of the denitrification process. The larger particles of fish waste or food leftovers are ingested by these critters and processed down, as the consum the particle take what nutrients they need from it and waste out the balance. The waste is now in the form of smaller particles and mush easier for bateria to process. Also the sand bed critters shift the sand and release trapped nitrogen gas which is a major function needed in order to maintain the stability of your reef.

A deep sand bed is actually not found in most reef areas. Most of the reef areas have a floor of rubble rock and mounds of broken corals. The deep sand beds we use a taken from the lagoonal areas, an area from which thier are only limited coral colonies..

We have to remember that the ocen is set up of many area type and the waters cover and pass through them. the water is dirtied in some areas, cleaned in others, provides food in some and non nutrient in others.


just a thought

Mike

[Flatlander]

Like this Mojo.:) Rubble bottom.

[Brian L]

Some valid points. We always come back to the 'balance' of a particular system. And sure, to a degree, the clean up crew is vital. They certainly do an honest day's work. I also like the idea of the last inch being live or from a seeded tank.

Point was that the actual chemistry happens in the anaerobic layer, where the nitrates lose the oxygen and form nitrogen gas. A passing snail will finalize the process by releasing it to the surface, but does not directly participate in the reaction; thats all.

Sand "sifters" may not play the same role. They can be detrimental to a reef tank because they eat anything in the sand and can wipe out the pod population in a hurry.

Because of dilution, the ocean will always be one up on us with respect to denitrification. We banter about DSB's and plenums in an attempt to reduce failures. I don't like a rubble bottom, unless it is in the sump, but if the chemistry is good, and losses are few we are on the same page.

Brian

[Flatlander]

Brian, What has my rubble bottom to do with losses. Nitrates in my system are first of all, low because I dont have lots of large fish and second, maintained by an ATS. By the way, its been written that denitrification occurs in 2 inch of sand. And according to Shimek, if one follows his teachings, the bed & the animals, main purpose, is to process waste, thus allowing heavy feeding to properly maintain many creatures we keep.

A tank can function fine with no deep sanbed and still have no problems, IMO. Contaminants can be removed by many other methods.

That being said, a sandbed will work well and help maintain a tanks water quality, as mine did. BUT, one must always have the creatures present to maintain that bed or problems will occur. Sometimes here in Canada, purchasing such creatures is a supreme pain.

FWIW, I kept a pair of orange spotted prawn{sleeper}gobies and sand sifting stars, among other things. They never made a dent in any of the visable population in my sand. Now,I dont suggest this as a standard practice of course, just relating a different approach. I had a large 4ft. by 32in. by 4in. deep bed. My sump at times, {a 55 gal}, also had a 4in bed, plus I use to feed many times/day and lots at every feeding.

I have gone with a rubble bottom for several reasons.
- I dislike the look of a sandbed on the front glass.
- The main fish in my tank are tomato clowns, and they are well know for disturbing sandbeds.
-Because of my filtration & livestock, there is no added benefit from having a bed, in my particular situation.
-I sure have much more room in my tank for rock & corals, instead of being 1/6th full of sand.:)

Anyways, enough said, and perhaps this is the wrong forum, but I just wanted to give a different view for any interested parties. My sandbeds were fine for several years, just time to go in another direction.:D

[rayjay]

SD sand is not available here in London. Home Depot won't even bring it in if I pay shipping charges.

[ajx22]

Originally posted by rayjay
SD sand is not available here in London. Home Depot won't even bring it in if I pay shipping charges.

Southdown is not and really will not be available in Canada. This is due to the shipping charges associated with large weight shipping. We have mines and companies that manufacture sand in Canada, so there is no reason to import this sand. No matter how you cut it...Southdown or any other silacate sand is not intended or processed for aquarium use.

On the other hand...

I have had the offer of supplying Pure Caribbean Aragonite to Canada by the executive of the company. I am seriously considering this option.

What I would like to know, is who would be interested in this sand. From what our research shows, we should be able to supply bags for about $35.00 - $38.00 each. These bags are from 40-45lbs each!!

CaribSea Aragamax sells for @ best $39.00 for 30 lbs - this would work out to $1.30/lb. The CaribSea Supergrade Reef Sand comes in 40lb bags, and at best sells for $57.00 - this works out to $1.43/lb.

If we can offer the Pure Caribbesn Aragonite (PCA) for $35-38 per 45lb bag - then this would only be $0.78 - $0.84 /lb. This substrate is also verified to be purified the same as CaribSea.

Please do let me know if anyone is interested in PCA orders - as I am trying to work out how many pallets we are going to be ordering in.

Not as cheap as Southdown - but still a savings!

Let me know...
Thanks,

[mojoreef]

As Doug says thier are many methods to keeping a reef, Berlin, eco, plenum and the manitobian.LOL:dance: . I myself perfer to steal little bits from various system and intrigate them together.

Like my great granpapy used to say"Thiers more than one way to skin a cat"

AJ I have dealt with Jim at Pure Argonite sand many times and he is a great guy to work with. The sand is perfect for deep sand beds. I bought a skid to get the price break and believe me people came out of the wood work to get some. I'm sure if you deal with him you will be happy


take care
Mike

[ajx22]

Originally posted by mojoreef
As Doug says thier are many methods to keeping a reef, Berlin, eco, plenum and the manitobian.LOL:dance: . I myself perfer to steal little bits from various system and intrigate them together.

Like my great granpapy used to say"Thiers more than one way to skin a cat"

AJ I have dealt with Jim at Pure Argonite sand many times and he is a great guy to work with. The sand is perfect for deep sand beds. I bought a skid to get the price break and believe me people came out of the wood work to get some. I'm sure if you deal with him you will be happy


take care
Mike

Thanks for the input Mike - I have spoken with Jim numerous times regarding this, and hope to have a deal worked out very soon. He wants to break into Canada with his product, but as you know, shipping a few bags just isn't cost effective. He gets TONS of phone calls and e-mails from Canadians wanting sand, but after most people get the shipping quote...it's out of the budget. So - hopefully, this is where I step in :D .

Let me know if you hear of anyone who is looking for it...or direct them to contact me directly. The more interest I get the more I can bring in - and maybe if the orders are enough, I will be able to bring in a train car full of pallets - which would allow for an even larger discount in shipping when breaking it down per bag.

Best regards,

[Flatlander]

Hey that sounds pretty good. The "Manitobian" method of reef keeping.:cheers:

Actually, I like you Mojo, use a little of everything.:D Yesterday I did add some sand to my tank, in some areas.

[rayjay]

I guess I'll just have to use some other cheap sand because at the rates you quoted above, I'd be bankrupt just putting 4" in each tank. (49.5 sqare feet) And that doesn't count the sumps. :rolleyes:

[ajx22]

Originally posted by rayjay
I guess I'll just have to use some other cheap sand because at the rates you quoted above, I'd be bankrupt just putting 4" in each tank. (49.5 sqare feet) And that doesn't count the sumps. :rolleyes:

I hear ya...I just put over 600lbs (30 Bags) of CaribSea Arag-Alive (live sand) into my 220Gal tank...and it still needs more. I haven't even added the substrate to the 40Gal refuguim yet! :eek2:

I wish that I could get it here cheaper...but shipping alone is 1/2 the cost!! :(

[Brian L]

Doug,

I never said that a rubble bottom has any relation to losses. What I continue to address is the "balance" of a system, and how it is achieved. It may very well be that nitrates are removed via water changes or various other nutrient export methods. It can be as simple as keeping macro algae in a refug. Hey, don't get me wrong. I've kept a great tank in a shallow sand bed and never once tested + for NO3. I added to the tank conservatively and supported the addition with LR. I had an extensive clean-up crew that was half of the fun of running the tank. I had everything from peanut worms to sea plants growing in that tank. In my eyes- a perfect ecosystem.

Now, getting back to what I actually did say. The chemistry of true denitrification in a sand bed can not happen in two inches of sand. Perhaps due to good husbandry they (NO3) may never be seen, but the anaerobic bacteria will not be present in such a bed. Don't drop names to support your successes, enjoy them.

[Greg Moore]

When addressing the needs for a sand bad etc, you must also remember that correct live rock also accomplishes this. The rock is porous and allows for the varied oxygen layers required. It does require a decent amount, but many large tanks will have much more then 1lb per gallon. If the rest of the tank is kept reasonably clean and in good condition, this much rock can do the required filtering without a sand bed etc...

Greg Moore

[EmilyB]

aj, that is a great price. Wish I lived closer :(
I pay $60 for 30lbs locally for caribsea special grade and aragamax. I have to add some every six months or so. It goes to heaven :laugh: because I'm told it doesn't break down.............

I'm glad we can't get Southdown. Their environmental lawsuits turned me off totally, and I just believe reefers should do the best thing. That's all I want to say about that, I don't want to get on a political soapbox, anyone who isn't aware can search the net.

My sand beds are 2-3" as a rule. I think this depth is good if you have lots of worms and sand bed critters to keep it clean.

However, I had to remove the sand in my FOWLR because my trigger loves diving into it to create a cloud of worms...:( and that tank has done fine with a small amount of crushed coral and a small bit of sand to amuse Trig-No-Metric Function.)

[ajx22]

Originally posted by EmilyB
aj, that is a great price. Wish I lived closer :(
I pay $60 for 30lbs locally for caribsea special grade and aragamax. I have to add some every six months or so. It goes to heaven :laugh: because I'm told it doesn't break down.............

I'm glad we can't get Southdown. Their environmental lawsuits turned me off totally, and I just believe reefers should do the best thing. That's all I want to say about that, I don't want to get on a political soapbox, anyone who isn't aware can search the net.

My sand beds are 2-3" as a rule. I think this depth is good if you have lots of worms and sand bed critters to keep it clean.

However, I had to remove the sand in my FOWLR because my trigger loves diving into it to create a cloud of worms...:( and that tank has done fine with a small amount of crushed coral and a small bit of sand to amuse Trig-No-Metric Function.)

I still may be able to get some to you for decent pricing...e-mail me your postal code and I'll look into it a bit if you'd like.

In respect to SD sand...I hear you and have voiced my opinion and findings numerous times on RC - only to get flamed for my 'ignorance' - so I just shaddap about it now! :D

Let me know and I'll do what I can for ya!

Best REEFgards,

[EmilyB]

Originally posted by ajx22


I still may be able to get some to you for decent pricing...e-mail me your postal code and I'll look into it a bit if you'd like.

In respect to SD sand...I hear you and have voiced my opinion and findings numerous times on RC - only to get flamed for my 'ignorance' - so I just shaddap about it now! :D

Let me know and I'll do what I can for ya!

Best REEFgards,

Okay, I'll also try to get Carpentersreef on here, he's setting up a new tank, I don't know what he's done for sand yet.

[ajx22]

Originally posted by EmilyB


Okay, I'll also try to get Carpentersreef on here, he's setting up a new tank, I don't know what he's done for sand yet.

As mentioned...the MORE THE MERRIER!!!

[Wayne's World]

Since Miracle Mud is being used and "sold", maybe some information could be shared. How expensive is it for us with our poor Cnd $. Is it worth extra money or is time and patience it's equal?

[Brian L]

From what I've read, there is no "miracle" to Miracle Mud and your pennies are better spent elsewhere. Sharing sand with a friend is a better way to facilitate your sand bed.

[Socram]

OK, so I have everything you guys have posted and i still have some questions...

My tank is new to me, but has been established for about 5 years before I got it. It's a 55 gal tank that came with a with a build in filter. I bought it last week with the live rock and fish included. The previous owner did not have any substrate at all, and I don't really like the look of the bare floor. I'd like to add some kind of substrate but don't know what the best route should be since it's a living tank already that is established and working just fine.

Is it best to use a combo of sand and crushed coral, or just one or the other? Or is this just a matter of opinion and any combination is pretty much fine?

Thanks,

Socram

[ajx22]

For the best results...go with an ALL fine particle sand bed (Southdown if you can find it in Canada) such as:
Caribsea Aragamax Sugar-Sized Sand

0.2-1.2mm diameter grain size (approx.) Also known as "Oolitic sand", this product is ideal for shallower beds, allowing denitrification in as little as 1" depth. The fine grain size can pass easily through the gills of gobys and other sand-sifting organisms. The smooth round grains are gentle to soft bellied sharks and rays. White in color and metal free, no ash or silica. Product #00930 (30lb.)

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/images/aragamax.jpg

This way you can have the proper and preferred biological filtration method of a Deep Sand Bed - DSB and Live Rock. You will only need to have a skimmer running with no other filter.

The live rock that you have will "seed" the DSB so you don't have to worry about it not being established - as it will get that way very fast.

Some reference points:
http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=335#post335
http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=746

I don't want to assume any knowledge or lack there of on your behalf...so please let us know what your level is and we can all try to help you out a bit more.

HTH,

[Socram]

That is great AJ! Thanks for the info. I have one more question.... do I need to get a clean up crew?

Thanks,

Socram

[ajx22]

Originally posted by Socram
That is great AJ! Thanks for the info. I have one more question.... do I need to get a clean up crew?

Thanks,

Socram

No problem on the info...glad to try to assist. :D

For the initial period...you don't want too much for a Clean-Up Crew as there will not be that much to clean-up and you don't want to starve your critters.

I would say to start off your 55Gal you should get a few different types of snails (5-10 Turbos, 2-3 Nassarius + maybe a Fighting Conch), a brittle star and if you like a crab or two (I prefer the Emerald - Mithrix - crabs as they help if you get any Bubble algae but also pick at the rocks nicely).

This would be enough for you for some time - unless you see an algae bloom...you would be fine with this.

Any other opinions out there??? Please do share!

Best regards,

[Asmodeus]

what about $23 dollars per bag. thanks what I'm getting it for
and that's a 30 lb bag to

So you are saying that you are selling aragonite for 38 dollars for 40 lb bag ...
:bigeek:

quite steep if you add the shipping in there too...

[Socram]

I lied before... there are more questions :)

I'm kinda scared about adding the substrate to my existing tank. Mainly the actually step of adding it. My plan so far is to take out all the fish and live rock and put them in buckets. Then add the rinsed sand, replace the rock, add the fish, and add new water to top up. Does this sound OK?

Once it's in there, I'm pretty sure that the tank will be fine with it, but I'll have to keep my eye on things for a couple of weeks.

Thanks again guys!

Socram

[ajx22]

Originally posted by delay
what about $23 dollars per bag. thanks what I'm getting it for
and that's a 30 lb bag to

So you are saying that you are selling aragonite for 38 dollars for 40 lb bag ...
:bigeek:

quite steep if you add the shipping in there too...

Yes Mike, Jayson has been getting some very good pricing on the aragonite. Glad you were able to save some $$.

We are still working on getting a better deal for ours, and will keep people up to date on what transpires.

Regards,