Dispute about DSB's - Do they work???

[ryan_lalande]

welcome

here are a few sites i would recomend checking out and reading stuff


www.wetwebmedia.com
www.advancedaquarist.com
www.reefs.org check out there library
so sum yahoo searches

you hve recieved sum great advice already but i would suggest checking out waht those sites have to say cause there are many ways to do things that will work. like for instance...a deep sandbed is not mandatory and can actualyl casue more problems then good if not set up right. it is know to be a ticking time bomb if not done properly.
there are refugiums, skimmers different types of light taht you can research about in those sites i sent you...esspecially wetwebmedia..very good site

[Michael_Lambert]

actualyl casue more problems then good if not set up right. it is know to be a ticking time bomb if not done properly.

Ryan, before you go scaring new hobbyist with this comment can you please post some evidence that shows this! Because from what i understand you dump sand into the tank and there is no way to do it wrong!

We don't need to turn this into another debate as this topic has been debated over and over! and to this day there is no evidence that states your comment is correct that i know of.

thanks
mike!

I Totally agree with AJ on the Drilling the tank, Something that everyone should do, makes things much easier !:)

[ajx22]

Originally posted by ryan_lalande
... like for instance...a deep sandbed is not mandatory and can actualyl casue more problems then good if not set up right. it is know to be a ticking time bomb if not done properly.
...

Care to explain this comment?

If someone was to not listen to the rules-of-thumb, and say use Kitty-Litter rather then aragonite sand...then yes, it would be a problem...

HOWEVER - I would like to know of an instance that a DSB was the cause of ANY problem in a tank.


ryan_lalande
Please be advised NOT to post improper advise to people on the AquariumPros.ca Forums! It will NOT be tolerated, and your posting privileges will be removed.

While everyone can, and is encouraged to post their opinions - do not post your opinions as facts - especially as misguided advice to a newly starting aquarist.

[ryan_lalande]

i dont mean to cause problems....and i dont htink i was leading him in any wrong direction which is why i poseted sum sites were he could read up on it...i was mearly saying it is an option but not mandatory...however

i am mustering up a whole wack of sites that list the problems...

ill post later on tonight all of them and ill show you the problems thanks alot!

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan!

Dont post sites that show the Debates on them! .. Post a site that shows HARD EVIDENCE ! Not someone saying what they think! .. But evidence that shows many test and proven Facts and test that infact they are dangerous!

[ryan_lalande]

i can pretty much prove i am right with my own knowledge but i will add sites later. the whole point opf this isnt to trash sand beds i wanted to give the newbie sum good site to read up on


i said that if a deep sad bed is done imporperly it can cause problems
what can cause problems

using the wrong material
not using the right size material
not doing proper mateniance to it can cause a build up of detrius and polute the tank
you need to have life in a sand bed...u can jsut throw in sand..u need things to move the sand keep it from clumping up
toxins can build up over time and kill everyhting if not looked at
i think alot of people would agree these are facts

so there is no there are no drawbacks to an imroperly done sandbaed cause the results could be deadly and i say that cause its a fact. in fact read up on ron shimeks sand bed articles...he know mroe about them then probably anyone and he to says that it must be done right to be effective

i have one i know what good they do i like them to..but do it right read up omn those sites i sent you they all have great articles on sandbeds
i dont take anyhting in this hobby to lightly and everyhting shouljd be looked into well before doing so which is why i psot these sites for you look go and read up.

[Michael_Lambert]

Originally posted by ryan_lalande
i can pretty much prove i am right with my own knowledge but i will add sites later. the whole point opf this isnt to trash sand beds i wanted to give the newbie sum good site to read up on


i said that if a deep sad bed is done imporperly it can cause problems
what can cause problems

using the wrong material
not using the right size material
not doing proper mateniance to it can cause a build up of detrius and polute the tank
you need to have life in a sand bed...u can jsut throw in sand..u need things to move the sand keep it from clumping up
toxins can build up over time and kill everyhting if not looked at
i think alot of people would agree these are facts

so there is no there are no drawbacks to an imroperly done sandbaed cause the results could be deadly and i say that cause its a fact. in fact read up on ron shimeks sand bed articles...he know mroe about them then probably anyone and he to says that it must be done right to be effective

i have one i know what good they do i like them to..but do it right read up omn those sites i sent you they all have great articles on sandbeds
i dont take anyhting in this hobby to lightly and everyhting shouljd be looked into well before doing so which is why i psot these sites for you look go and read up.

Ryan,

First there was nothing posted here about improper sand we did say Fine grains!

"not doing proper mateniance to it can cause a build up of detrius and polute the tank"

There is not proper maintence, Thats what a cleanup crew is for! When adding sand to the tank you allso add Rock, with adds the life to the sand witch is needed!

You where fine by adding the sites to the thread for people to read! But then you go and make comments witch to this point you are still arguing and you can not prove! .. Instead of wasting peoples time by posting this crap why dont you just pull up your web page that has the Evidence, not what somone eles thinks!
Please go ahead and post a Qoute from a plublished artical that proves that sandbeds are dangerous!

Thanks
Mike.

[ajx22]

Originally posted by ryan_lalande
...
what can cause problems

using the wrong material
not using the right size material
not doing proper mateniance to it can cause a build up of detrius and polute the tank
you need to have life in a sand bed...u can jsut throw in sand..u need things to move the sand keep it from clumping up
toxins can build up over time and kill everyhting if not looked at


Using wrong materials - yes...which is why it's called a DSB - a DSB is a sandbed set-up a certain way. A Ford Focus is not a Hyundai Pony - yes, they are both cars - but one is what it is due to "Discerning Atributes". So yes...if you're setting up a DSB, you have to do it the right way - cause if you don't - it's not a DSB.

The right sized materials is something that can be disputed with proven results. I know people who use medium grain sizes, I know people who use small grain sizes...BOTH WORK FINE. You don't NEED the micro grain sized sand (such as Southdown) for a DSB to work.

There should really be NO maintenance done on a DSB by you. It should all be taken care of by your clean-up crew. This is one of the benefits of a DSB over a Crushed Coral substrate - a DSB isn't a "Detritus Collector".

The whole point of a DSB is that there are toxins building up - that's why it has to be 4"-6" - so that you have both layers. If it is too shallow in depth...then you don't have the isolated layers...and therefore you wouldn't have a DSB.

In respect to "stirring up the sandbed" - your "Clean-Up-Crew" will do all the minor stirring needed. Animals that deeply borrow into the DSB cause more problems then not having it stirred at all.

Indeed...Dr. Ron Shimek knows DSB's very well...and that being stated...don't misquote his research.

[ryan_lalande]

u guys jsut proved everyhting i said.....

i gave some good sites with advice. i advised sumbody to read up and do his homewerk about sumthing before taht person goes and does it. i think that is the best advicee u can give a newbie.
and in your last two responses you agreed with me that grains size and other issues are important

this went well i am happy with the results
i never said the advicee you gave him was bad or anything in fact i beleive i said that he was given good advicee s ofar in my very first message. i was merly saying to read up on it cause it should be done right or there can be problems
whcih is the way it is for everyhting in the world, if its done right you can avoid any problems. there was never a moment of critiism, a moment were i said anyones advicec that was given to this person was doubted or said to be incorrect.,

thank you guys i am glad this little arguement is over and it turned out the way i though it would.
and i will say again to aww crimity to find and read from as many sites as possible and see the different ways people do things cause its best to start off on the right track then to have problems later on. and a deep sand bed is fantastic when you do it right. ohgh and yes the advice tooloud and the others gave you on how to do it is great. i would also try and get a couple of cups of live sand from people you know to add diversity.

thanks again guys!!!

i never quoted dr ron but liek you said grain size depth of sain bed and critters..being the worms and copopds that stirr the sand are important and the bed will not be efficient if it isnt deep

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan..

All we where saying is that there is no wrong way to setup a DSB,

This all started becouse you went and stated somthing that is incorrect! that fact that a DSB Is dangerous or can be!

"so there is no there are no drawbacks to an imroperly done sandbaed cause the results could be deadly and i say that cause its a fact. "

you go and post Crap like this and then you can't back it up, This is somthing that most of use will take personally becouse of the fact you are not just posting the sites for someone to read and see the whole picture you are allready stating somthing that is Incorrect, and well possible scaring anyone who reads this.. and to someone who has no setup the tank it may turn them away from the hobby!

I mean by all means! .. if you have the evidence to show that DSB's are bad them post it, But if you dont have the evidence to prove them then please keep your comments like that out of the post!

[ryan_lalande]

i was just on reefs.org talking to sum of the experts of the hobby. And i had msot of the people talkin in there reply and message with with the answer of yes a sand bed can be horrible if not done right

methane gas can build up in a sand bed esspecailly if the5re arent enough worms and bugs to keep it stirred.

again its all opinion but still worth reading up on and doing it right from the beggining. i think i reserve the right to inform sumbody on how i think and many other feel about sumthing. jsut because one person does things differently or think differently dosent make them right over me.

there have been hundreds of heated debates on sandbeds..why because there are tons of opinions

in the end i feel they are great as long as you set it up properly.

goodluck to you post pics whenever you can

this is an entire forum post of people talking about htere dsb's......now there are some tlk about ron shimek even himself saying that a deep sand bed must be replaced every 4 - 5 years. so keep that in mind to.
http://www.reeflounge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3086

now again this is all opinion. but i think if ytou read this you will agree that there can be big problems with a dsb if not done right and again people are still elarning more about them

so i think i have proven my point enough
i am not trying to get you away from ahving one at all as i have one myself and am quite happy with it, but reserch on evrything everyone tell you and get results from others.

i like dsb's but i think i am gonna try my next tank with barebottom.

and for my fianl dr shimek sites itself...look at the conclusion on this page...he goes over the importance of every part of the sand bed and how everything should be to have it work

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/june/features/1/default.asp


this is a great article....it explaisn how good a sand bed can be and what it shouild be made up of

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan, once again you are posting somthing that is not really worth crap, I mean its just people.. Maybe people with more experience posting there opions, Where in there is the evidence that they will be problems, There still is no evidence to support the concerns that some are debating about!

All i have to say is that im all for a DSB.. and sure there are many people debating it.. but soo many people are too busy trying to argue it no one has been able to accually plublish a report proving that infact it is a problem! Or a problem to be!

Thanks
Mike

[afss]

Come on toooloud and Ryan. You guys are getting into the fine details of it and nit picking the posts.

By definition a DSB is a layer of sand of the appropriate sized grains with life in it. If you set it up this way, as a DSB then there should be no problems. If its not deep, doesn't have the right grain size, or have life in it then by definition its not a DSB but would be a Sand bed.

You guys are saying the same basic thing and both trying to make your selfs look right and the other wrong. Enough is enough until there is FIRM evidence that a DSB (by definition) is a bomb please don't add to this post.

Ryan, in the future, just chose your wording more carefully.

Scott

[ryan_lalande]

i understand that and its all good

first off all i never started this post which kinda pisses me off cause it says my name as the post starter and i dont know how it happenbed or who did it...tooloud?? i never even wanted this to be its own post in ap.

however i have talked to people, many people who have had tank crashes ddue to the sand bed...and if ron shimek himself said that a dsb needs to be changed every 4 - 5 years then there must be a reason....anyway i think i have given mroe then enough evidence to back myself up being that wetwebmedia, ron shimeks site, forums, and jsut grneral conversation but it dosent matter to me anymore cause i will jsut let people beleive what they want
however dont put up posts stated to be started by me that arent i dont appreciate that

i know all you trying to do is get the whole board against me cause i am not the fan favorite in here.

thanks

[ryan_lalande]

let me go back on one thing form that last post....i see why aj set up a new topic....casue we were cluttering up sombody elses psot with garbage....

never mind all that crap i said about not liking this new forum being set up with my name


however id still like to point out that i never had intensions of starting the arguement by started this post

[Reef Mike]

I think I have to chime in here unfortunately...

First of opinions are opinions and they should be presented as that. Unless there is hard evidence backing your claim up.

Second.. Ryan your last comment about people's tank's crashing because of a DSB problem is crap.. I have read and participated in many of the DSB debates and no one can absolutely for sure say that their tank crashed because of a DSB. It seems a lot of people recently pick on the DSB as the source of all the problems in the tank, and perhaps overlook some other fundamental problems that can exist. Just a few days ago i read someone was blaming their DSB for leaching phosphates into their tank. These are all opinions of people and should be stated as such.

As for my opinion :) (you knew it was coming) DSB are very, very good. There is no way not to do a DSB proberly. You put sand into your tank and and you put rock in there and then a cleanup crew and presto you have a DSB. Over time all the life that would naturally exist in the sand will take up residence in the sandbed and do what it is that they naturally do to keep it alive, stirred and active. (The only thing you can do to enhance your DSB is borrow :) some sand from a fellow reefers established tank) I see things in my sandbed every week that surprise me, and I am sure as time goes on I will see more.

The other thing is that you do not maintain a DSB, it maintains itself (as mentioned above)

Finally, there are many ways to setup a tank, some right some wrong but in the end whatever works for you is the right way. DSB are not a must and alot of people have had great success keeping reefs without any sand (bare bottom). Debate is good, opinions are good, conflicting views are great, but when one persons opinions become fact then that is when there is a serious problem because a lot of people will take it as gospel and base their decisions on it.

Damm I have to much free time on my hands at work :)

Mike

[bertcmg]

Just a couple of Questions

How many people here have a DSB for more than 5 years without trouble ? Lets hear about your experience

If I was to take an educated guess I would think that the build up of Toxins in the DSB is a problem that makes some sense

I use a DSB but its not in my main tank but have a 7 Inch deep tupperware container with 6' of sand in the refugium bottom
( I figure that it would be easier to change it )

Its about 1 Sq Ft of surface area do you think it has any benefit ?

[ajx22]

Originally posted by ryan_lalande
however dont put up posts stated to be started by me that arent i dont appreciate that


Ryan,

First of all...it is MY forum - and I can split whatever thread I choose. By your registering for AquariumPros.ca - you have agreed to the rules on posting - so to put it bluntly "Tough Luck". This "dispute" was in no way assisting the initial poster - and as such, all posts that were connected to this dispute were moved to a new thread...INCLUDING MINE!




Originally posted by ryan_lalande
i know all you trying to do is get the whole board against me cause i am not the fan favorite in here.

This forum has been - and will continue to be a Friendly Community of Friends - with or without you. No one is doing anything to get people against you EXCEPT YOU!

You have basically stepped into someone elses house - and started to stir-up crap. How would you feel if I was to come into your home, and either start arguements or trash-talking you?



Either abide by the rules this community has - or you are welcome to move on. Either you're here to get along and HELP - or you're really not. People here only care about those who are contributing something back.

Kinda like real life...

[ryan_lalande]

yeah aj i know thats why i placecd that other post right after tyhe post you used quotes from takin back what i said saying that i understand why you did it..also i didnt know u did it..i noticed that red ost afterwards in the other post.

and now i have a question

toolound u say there is no way to set it up wrong that all you need to do is put in teh sand and the critters. also i believe you need water movement as well

well let me ask you...if sumbody set up a sand bed and dosent put critters in, or dosnet get good water flow then what would happen..would the sandbed track large amounts of detrius? would toxis build up. i would say the answer is yes thus done improperly
i dont think a sand bed is fool proof and problems can arise , thats my opinion there are many who support it , there are many who disagree but thats the way it is for everything

i l liek to say that i would reccomend evryone especially newbies to go on reefcentral search the froums especially hte dr rons forum and find otu all you can from hundreds of aquarists about them


second of id like to say that i believe i never misinformed anyone by stating false facts......and i will prove this as i have been reading sum posts by ron shimek himself and a sand bed is clearly not sumthing that can be thrown in and left alone....

i will be posted sum very interesting things shortly...and again to avopid all conflict and confussion which i should have added these 3 letters in the very begginging of all of this.......imo

everything i say is in my opinion

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan, You are getting Soo ANAL! over what.. you still cant prove what you stated thats all there is too it.. There is still no evidence that states it the deep sand beds!


toolound u say there is no way to set it up wrong that all you need to do is put in teh sand and the critters. also i believe you need water movement as well


Sure.. if you are going to add WATER, Hell take the empty tank, dump in the 8 inch sand bed and nothing Else.. Now tell me where that DSB is going to start problems! .. you just are not getting it !


if sumbody set up a sand bed and dosent put critters in, or dosnet get good water flow then what would happen..would the sandbed track large amounts of detrius? would toxis build up. i would say the answer is yes thus done improperly

see now you are not talking about setting up the sand bed.. but a Reef tank in general.. rules of thumb state for a Reef tank you add Snails crabs so on.. not the rules of thumb on a sand bed! .. you add live rock to tank your .. MATURE live rock and you are seeding the Sand bed with the critters it needs!


i dont think a sand bed is fool proof and problems can arise , thats my opinion there are many who support it , there are many who disagree but thats the way it is for everything

This is what we are talking about! .. There are many Opinions on the topic.. and many people support the idea that they are bad.. BUT NO ONE CAN PROVE that these opinions are true or Else they would be FACTS!

second of id like to say that i believe i never misinformed anyone by stating false facts......and i will prove this as i have been reading sum posts by ron shimek himself and a sand bed is clearly not sumthing that can be thrown in and left alone....
Again.. Until you can post the FACTS, Proven and tested Facts that the sand beds are dangerous.. then you are more than welcome to state " In your opinion they are dangerous and why" don't just jump into a post from a newbie and states they are! Don't go and conversations people are having on the topic! .. post us a published article or findings on it proving it!

Once again, you are claiming that its the Toxins from broken down waste that is what is the killer! .. So sure .. great.. So the next person who loses there tank because of this issue and is running a bare bottom tank i will blame that DSB that does not exists in the tank! .. If you are going to blame the fact of toxins building up .. you are not maintaining your tank correctly! .. because your water changes would have removed them!

[ryan_lalande]

here what i have done i posted to ron shimek this debate and asked hi ma favour

my message to him is this

(as my first post stated)..... i advised a newbie that, while sandbeds can be great and most benifitail to a tank, he should go to a bunch of sites and look up info on a sand bed cause if a sandbed is not set up right then there can be deadly problems. i told him i was blasted away by a few people saying that there are no problems with sandbeds can be no problems and all you have to do is plop in the sand and sum live rock and your done and that nothing bad can come outta a sand bed and there are no facts to say any problems can arise from a sand bed.

i will post you what he has to say....he is the expert..you want proof, there is no person that knows more on the subject then him and everyhitng he hwas to say should be taken as fact. so this is the best way i can prove to you that sandbeds arent jsut plop in and play..they are required to be properly set up and maintained regularly.

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan!

I'm not going to sit here and play your stupid and very Childish Games !.. you can Email GOD for all i care and have his OPINION stated! .. but its just that OPINION! .. IF i should take every thing that the DR has to say as fact! .. and he wishes for us to take it as fact! .. He would have published a REPORT or ARTICLE On this topic and would be making that much more money because of it! .. the FACTS That i will take will come from report that has been proven and published! .. Until then they are Opinions and will be taken as such!

Now maybe you should resend that email in include the truth! .. the FACTS that where posted !


a deep sand bed is not mandatory and can actualyl casue more problems then good if not set up right. it is know to be a ticking time bomb if not done properly.

People JUMPED all over you because you go and state a FACT that is not proven! .. and you don't even explain it! there is no such thing as a correctly setup DSB! .. but in fact a correctly setup REEF SYSTEM! .. because for a DSB to work you need to have a REEF setup right.. Meaning right sand, Right rocks, right cleanup crew and PROPER maintenance! .. this is what you did not state when you went shooting your mouth off about the DSB being bad! You did GREAT by posting the Sites for reading material, no one has said anything about that.. Its the comments you made stating facts that are not facts because they are not proven! So you can post to whom ever you wish.. and the will gladly reply to you with there views and opinions on things and how they should or should not work! .. but that does not make them right!


I'm done Ranting about this issue! .. its just like debating about Skimmers and Refugiums.. there is not right or wrong answer.. because nothing is proven!

So maybe you should just sit on your hands there Ryan and wait for the Good Dr. to get back to you.. and by all means share it.. But its needless to say CRAP unless you told him the truth and all the truth.


I'm done !
Mike!

[jastonataquapro]

Holy crap people!

In Ryan's defence though it's easy to see where he might say "if it's not setup right", I quote Ron S.

"like all ecosystems, this one contains many regular pathways for material and energy to flow through it. Maintenance of all of these pathways is not essential for the well being of the organisms in the system. Maintenance of sufficient pathways to prevent the accumulation of materials and chemical energy is necessary. The breakdown of such pathways, generally by nutrient overload, is a primary cause of community collapse in organically polluted ecosystems. Once such a breakdown of pathways has started it tends to cause more breakdowns. "
Ron Shimek speaking of sand beds.

Maintanence would be that of the various organisms found in and on the sand bed. So if those aren't included your sand bed's pathways may fail, causing a cascaded failure. BUT, place some live rock in there, seed it with good live sand from someone else, buy some snails, cucumbers, etc. And you're good, the pathways are auto maintained. Overload your system like MANY people do, and you cannot have nature auto maintain it for you. So "setting it up right" can also include not overloading your system.

Alas it's all interpretation and splitting words.

Now how's that for the last word.

[ryan_lalande]

yes i think what jason jsut added makes sense of all of this....

thats exacly it.....everyting is opinion and there are people that support different ones...you said normall maintenancee on the reef is enough to keep a sand bed going...well yeah i agree thats all included when i say doing it right...the adding of the lr..the cleanup crew, cukes, livesand, organism diversity that is all included doing it right...so thank you for that reply i am glad at least one person understood were i was comming from. to tell you the truth i dont know what u even mean by proof....i dont hink it matters if its a publsihed article the onbly diofference from that and what you are told is that its on paper....the dr writes almsot all teh articles on it so what he says by word of mouth can be considered the same thing as waht he writes on paper in the end its still his info from his mind

with that in mind..i will still post wahtever info he gives me but i think i have proven my point enough to satisfy at this point..and now i dont even care if toolound you think i am right or wrong casue it isnt gonna change your mind anyways. publsihesd articles are great but i must say i find word of mouth to be one of the fastest and most reliable sources

thanks again to all who read

[Michael_Lambert]

Ryan,

It does not matter what I think! The point is and it was proven in this post and the other! .. That you where WRONG to have posted what you did where you did and HOW you did it! .. thats what started all this! It was your carelessness to post something that you can not back up !

It takes Jason to do the 2 second job that you should have done in the first place !.. That was to go into the sites, threads INFORMATION and pull out the point that backs you up!

As for Proof! .. That would be compelling information that backs your theories! that will prove what you think is right! not just an opinion but proof.. You cant go and tell someone that doing something is wrong unless you can prove it!

There are many things i wish i could share with you ! .. but i wont! But if you can not see the difference between having reliable PROVEN information or just word of mouth then you might just have issues!

As for this comment !

"i will still post whatever info he gives me but i think i have proven my point enough to satisfy at this point.."

You have yet to still prove anything! All you have done is gone and done what many others have done before you, And that is to share someone Else opinion!

All im going to say is that all you are doing is doing what others have done! and that is to and Blame the one thing that you THINK is the cause, So many people are blaming the Sand bed.. Not becouse they know that is the cause but becouse they dont know any better! , It is infact many many many factors that will cause the whole issue! .. You stated the one item you stated it was a Incorrectly installed DSB that will cause it.. When as jason pointed out it is not that! .. But infact the DSB is only one part of the many factors that would be included !

[afss]

OK guys.. REALLY.. enough of the i'm right your wrong. everyone knows what was meant to be said. You are both entitled to your opinions as long as you say "IMO" and then say what ever you want to say.

Please, please, please drop this argument over who is right and wrong.

[bertcmg]

I ask again

Has anyone had a DSB for more than 5 years without ripping it out ?

f not lets agree that we don't know for a fact that a DSB COULD be a " Time bomb" or maybe not



Logically the ticking bomb theory makes sense to me but thats just me



I for one really want to know because I did not install one in my tank for the possibility of me having to rip-out my tank

If this is Factually incorrect than we would like to know

I doubt that anyone here can come up with any evidence that would satisfy either side.


We rely on our fellow reefers past experiences and opinions they have formed based on their experiences

Even if Ryan posted incorrect info ( in your opinion) Its not like nobody bothered to correct him, that's the beauty these forums



I must say that I am personally disappointed in some of our fellow members for failing to see this

[Michael_Lambert]

Bert.

"
Even if Ryan posted incorrect info ( in your opinion) Its not like nobody bothered to correct him, that's the beauty these forums "

we did correct Ryan on this, as to this day there is no facts that state DSB are bad.. but yet there are many that state they are very beneficial.

Ryan is the one who keeps on saying he has this evidence, But yet never does post it! He posted web sites and other comments by other hobbyist. As Jason quoted from a site that Ryan post for us showing that in fact the issues he is talking about is not from the DSB! but from the improper maintenance of a reef tank in general!

Bert as to your Question!
"I ask again

Has anyone had a DSB for more than 5 years without ripping it out ? "

My uncle back in the 80s. ran a saltwater tank it was a 55G tank 30 pound of live rock and 3 inches of Crushed coral, he kept in that tank some damsels now i remeber staring at that tank for years he had it setup for atelast 10 years before he died and my aunt removed it and sold it! now for 10 years he did nothing to it execpt clean the glass..

i have seen tanks that have been running for more than 5 years but never asked if they tore out the sandbed! .. and they have been more than healthy.

[ryan_lalande]

k listen i want this to be over but u said sumthing


i dont know how to use the quote thing but you last message was incorrect.,...i never once not even fopr a second said that dsb are bad never ever. i did say they are benifitial but can be bad if not done right.

however i can see by your recent post your are getting very upset over this very upset...so dont worry about it man if you want you can have this one i wont even try to fight it anymore. I almsot feel afraid to give any advice anymore cause of people critiqueing other people opinions...but anyways its over dude u can have it.

[afss]

Bert

. I don't know anyone who has had one for 5 years. I have for almost 3. I am not saying that a DSB won't crash or that it will. Personally i believe them to work very well, but that is just my opinion. This is where the whole thing started. Ryan posted it as if it were fact. He later corrected that and for some reason toooloud won't just drop it.
Also Bert I think that a DSB of 1 foot sq at 6 inches deep should be very beneficial. IMO its not as beneficial as a larger one, but its better than none.

Ryan

Please continue to post and share your information... BUT please be sure to put in your replies that it is In Your Opinion, unless it is a cold hard fact. To a newbie that doesn't know you or anyone else for that matter they may take your word as fact when there is much to debate. Thats all just don't state things as fact unless they are.

Now PLEASE drop this I'm right your wrong part of the thread. If it can continue with meaningful information and without the I'm right your wrong part thats great. Otherwise DROP IT!

Thanks

Scott

[Michael_Lambert]

I;m not upset! I am VERY Passionate about this hobby, and about the Hobbyist !

Bert,

As for 5 years, I don't know if someone could say a time frame as there are so many different things with so many different tanks! I mean to sit there and say that someone with say a 100G and a 50G tank both with a 5 inch sand bed, IMO i would not say that they would both go off if they ever would, Now with that said if you overstock your tank and don't have the correct biological filtration to deal with it then yes you are going to get a build up of waste and in turn will cause damage!

[ryan_lalande]

what type of skimmer you getting?

[afss]

huh?

[bertcmg]

QUOTE

you can Email GOD for all i care and have his OPINION stated! .. but its just that OPINION! ..




Tooloud I am wondering what your definition of Fact is ?

This is arguing for arguing sakes

lets drop this discussion its no longer helping anyone

POST UNSUBCRIBED

Ciao

[ryan_lalande]

lol sorry that skimemr question was for a different post..haha sorry about that

[Michael_Lambert]

Originally posted by bertcmg
QUOTE
Tooloud I am wondering what your definition of Fact is ?




Pulled from http://www.yourdictionary.com/

Fact:

1) Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
2)Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed
3)A real occurrence; an event:

Opinions:
1)A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
2)A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert


as you can see from the above definitions there is a huge difference from stating a fact and an opinion..

hope this helps, this would be the definitions i would go by as well.

thanks
Mike

[bertcmg]

Is there a moderator here who can close this thing Its getting silly

[Michael_Lambert]

I would love to still hear what the Good Dr. has to say!

[afss]

First.. Bert.. I thought you were unsubscribing from the thread.

Second you asked for the definition

Third he answered it clean, with out a you are wrong i am right attitude. I personally believe this thread should remain open and should have people that are interested in it post what they have found out or do find out AS LONG as it is done in a friendly informative way.

Some good information could come of it

Scott

[bertcmg]

I thought I did unsubsribe but Tooloud shot me 6 PM's to get me into it again

I asked that a moderator either close this or take some other suitable action or in this case no action

Forgot Tooloud is a moderator himself

LOL

Bert

[Michael_Lambert]

Bert, There you go now stating what you think are facts.. But are really Fiction!

thanks
Mike!

[afss]

Bert. Tooloud has not been a moderator for a while now.
I have no idea what he has sent you in PM's and i don't need to know.

For a Fourth time please drop it. I want to see this thread stay open for useful information not banter.

Scott

[Reef Mike]

So what if we put a DSB in the Toronto Maple Leafs Locker.. Do you think it would help them win the cup, or will it crash in 6 months??

Hmmmm.. I wonder :cheers:

Mike

[afss]

Too funny :roflmao: :dance: :cheers:

[ryan_lalande]

this is waht i heard....i am nont saateing facts..this is all opinion by sum experts nothing here by definitaion is fact all opinion

one more time caue i guess it really need to be pointed out

i am getting flooded emails and massive responses to this question..nopw these arent facts!

but apparently there is a massive streek of tanks that are incredibly healthy and thriving overnight blow up. everyone of these blames the sand bed.

now th opinion! imo..this is an opinion no fcts here folks imo imo
does anyone think that of all the "opinions were people think there tank has crashed from the dsb do yoiu not think that outta the 100 or so that claim it, that maybe one of them is true..amybe 2 3 4 50?
if so is there enough evidence that maybe if its not done right there can be massive disaters...maybe its luck?

i dont know for sure however id say that there must be some wqay to find out ... a test that can be done.

i have no names, but from many of the post i read i guess the big time reefers that have been doing it forever are starting to disagree with the sandbed due to the time bomb thought...

i know myself i only have a 3 inch sand and when i vacumme it there is massive detrius...and i only feed my fish oncec or twice a week , and i have a cucumber so IMO id say its not hadrd for detrius to accumilate in a sand bed

any opinions.....i dont want any arguements here everything anyone says in this forum is now to be taken as a safe opinion

please post..as i am setting a tank up and am debating weqather or not to use dsbs....especially since ei seen some unbelievable sps tanks with barebottom no sump!

this is waht i heard....i am nont saateing facts..this is all opinion by sum experts nothing here by definitaion is fact all opinion

one more time caue i guess it really need to be pointed out

i am getting flooded emails and massive responses to this question..nopw these arent facts!

but apparently there is a massive streek of tanks that are incredibly healthy and thriving overnight blow up. everyone of these blames the sand bed.

now th opinion! imo..this is an opinion no fcts here folks imo imo
does anyone think that of all the "opinions were people think there tank has crashed from the dsb do yoiu not think that outta the 100 or so that claim it, that maybe one of them is true..amybe 2 3 4 50?
if so is there enough evidence that maybe if its not done right there can be massive disaters...maybe its luck?

i dont know for sure however id say that there must be some wqay to find out ... a test that can be done.

i have no names, but from many of the post i read i guess the big time reefers that have been doing it forever are starting to disagree with the sandbed due to the time bomb thought...

i know myself i only have a 3 inch sand and when i vacumme it there is massive detrius...and i only feed my fish oncec or twice a week , and i have a cucumber so IMO id say its not hadrd for detrius to accumilate in a sand bed

any opinions.....i dont want any arguements here everything anyone says in this forum is now to be taken as a safe opinion

please post..as i am setting a tank up and am debating weqather or not to use dsbs....especially since ei seen some unbelievable sps tanks with barebottom no sump!

ohh toolound....ill say this you definitaion are fine.....as much as i think they are alike, fact and opinion are to different things....

however id say that dr rons know so much about dsb that i consider his opinions to be facts...and actually now that i think of it when he says some thing or writses something he writes them down as facts as he has done all the test to prove them.

[afss]

Personally i don't think you should vacuum a sand bed. It goes against the whole theory of how it is supposed to work.

I have seen people blaming their tanks crashing on the DSB but people use to blame the death of corals and fish on bristle worms when it is now generally accepted that they are scavengers and will only move in when the animal is dead of near dead.

Not saying that a DSB won't crash, but want to know if they were set up properly. Left alone, no outside factors to influence things, no triggers to cause it. I am skeptical, but open to the idea. I personally am not sure what i will do with my next tank DSB or not, but i know if the main tank doesn't have one the Refugium will.

Scott

[ryan_lalande]

i ahve rons reply..this i think is a fact

Hi,

If one follows the directions I have given, it is very hard to go wrong with a sand bed. They are simple to set up and easy to maintain.

Problems occur when people use the wrong types of sediment, or do not innoculate the bed with appropriate animals, or "stir" the bed, or introduce "sand sifting" animals. In these situations, the net result is a build up of nutrients in the system.

i believe this is good proof you needed toolound...it would seem by this response that there are 3 possible problems with sandbed if not done right or if you do the wrong things to them being the maintenance....

this being said i worry to try one..as the ones i have used in teh past were never built properly being that they werent thick enough...i would love to hear everyone OPINION on this as i think it is very important to everyone from expert to newbie

also i am wondering if it is a risk to have incase of accidental stirrage......

now i know there arent exatly earthquakes were i am, but if sumthing fell in the tank, the tank gets bumped? certain wrasse love to burrow liek crazy..could it be said that thiose types of wrasse arent reef safe in dsb tanks???

what do you all think?

[afss]

Great, so its confirmed that if the DSB is set up as a DSB should be then everything should be OK.

Scott

Any creature that hunts for food in the sand, ie makes lunch for the critters living in it, would be detrimental to the DSB as i understand it.

As for accidental stirring from a rock falling, IMO you are being paranoid. Stirring like he is talking about would be moving the sand bed from one tank to another (I have done this 3 times no problems yet) and probably vacuuming. I don't think he is referring to moving a bit of the upper layer of sand when rearranging rocks. However this is only how i read into it.

Scott

[ryan_lalande]

no i agree with you...however i would think a wrasse could be a problem as they dont just go in the sand to hunt, but they do so for protection....whiule they may also do it to eat the creaatures in the sand, i think most fish would gladly consider teh organisms in the sand as possible lunch

however i agree that the rock fallin or wahtever is of no risk

[Michael_Lambert]

well sure they would, But that is all part of the cycle of life.. I mean sure some get eaten, but at the same time they would be populating in the rocks..

[ryan_lalande]

yes they would be in the rocks..acutally i am not really worried about the population of critters being dropped due to fish grazin, i was more saying the amount of the dsb that can be stirred up by wrasses or other large fish realeasing the sulfide or whatever that is in teh bottom of the sand bed.

[Chrismo]

I read Dr Shimek's post to say that a DSB NEEDS to be disturbed regularily. That sand sifting creatures are a requirement for a healthy DSB.

If the sand is undisturbed for too long then "bad stuff" can build up in in it. I'm pretty darn sure thats what he ment. Like constant minor seizmic activity to avoid a build up to "the big one"

I think he ment it like this...
Problems occur when people use the wrong types of sediment, or do not;
Innoculate the bed with appropriate animals,
"Stir" the bed,
Introduce "sand sifting" animals.

In these situations, the net result is a build up of nutrients in the system.

It's like that skit on Saturday night live where the guy gets his son to house-sit his nuclear reeactor and tells him the only thing to remember is... "You cant put too much water in a nuclear reactor"
but of couse the skit went on for like an hour after it stopped being funny. :)

[Michael_Lambert]

But that would be no Different from a 6-8 inch Brisel worm digging through it :)