Converting a brackish tank to saltwater, help!

[awcrimety]

Hi, I'm Logan, and I'm new here. I have tried a few other forums lately, and have been ignored. Which brings me here ;) This place seems to be a bit more helpful, so I shall try once more.

Okay, I have a 50 gallon (48x12) tank that is currently a brackish setup. The salinity is about 1.010 (instant ocean salt). The gravel is just that, gravel. I have read and read about the sand, and the crushed coral, and cannot figure out which is better for me. My goal is to have a FOWLR to start, but i'm sure that once i get started i will want some corals. I would LIKE to have a porcupine puffer, but i'm sure he will eat the clean up crew. So I'm thinking of a few gobies, and some peaceful fish.

For filters, i'm running a fluval 303, an aquaclear 300, and a small powerhead(no filter). To keep the startup costs down, I'm hoping to not have to purchase a protein skimmer to start. I've read that with routine water changes, and consistent monitoring of levels, i can get away without it.

For lights, i have just added a new (came with used tank, but didn't hook it up till now) double balast light fixture. I'm not sure what kind it is or the power. It says 40w max bulbs. I'll take some pics and maybe someone can help me with that too. I was told at the lps to just use a marine-glo and a power-glo and bob's my uncle.

One thing i'm hoping to do is avoid cycling, seeing as i'm already halfway to sw. I have been advised that raising the salinity by 1.002 or so per day will allow me to avoid a new cycle. any thoughts?

Okay, i guess that's it for now,...any help would be greatly appreciated,...i'll go take some pics! ;)

thanks
logan

[awcrimety]

lights

[awcrimety]

i tried to get a pic of the ballast, but it wouldn't turn out. it says this though

line volts 120 - cycles 60 - normal line amperes .67

here's a pic of the tank as it is now ;)

[Michael_Lambert]

Welcome Logan,

As for converting your tank , It should work out well! , so lets start from the bottom up!

Substrate : currently Gravel, if you are going to want to keep corals then you will want a DSB (Deep Sand Bed) So you are much better to just convert it now! I would suggest using a Fine particle sand, Just better for breeding your little critters in the sand!

Rock, Not sure how much you will plan to have but it will be what you want to only use when you go with corals, The Mechanical filters will work for Fish Only as they do tend to produce nitrates in the water because they cant be cleaned as often as they should ( every day ) to prevent the nitrates.. what you will want to do is over time keep adding the rock till you get 1.5 pounds per gallon and then slowly removed the mechanical filters and you will be good to go with the corals

Lights: You have more than enough to keep Fish, and maybe some basic softies like Mushrooms and Zoo's But over time you will want to move to more corals like leathers and LPS, you will have to upgrade to at least VHO 4x 110 watt VHO, if you want to move up from there to SPS Or clams you will need to move to Metal Halides, I would suggest 2 x 250Watt 10ks!,

Protein skimmer: There are many of use who do not use them! , now at the same time most of use have much lower bioloads! So if you are not going to be using a skimmer to start, just watch how much you feed your fish, Make sure you are not having any uneatten food in your tank!

Fish: Yes the puffer will make food out of any inverts you have in the tank ( Snails, crabs or shrimp) as for keeping gobies and peaceful fish great idea! , Personally i like Blinnie's and Clowns!

As for the cycle: You most likely have some bacteria growth in the tank raising your salinity wont do much to that, What will cause another cycle is adding rock! , If you want to minimize your cycle time try to add in some mature live sand then cover it with new stuff, and try and get mature or well cycled live rock, If you buy live rock ( UNCURED) then it will have death on it from shipment and your tank will cycle! what your best to do is get what can set it up and check for nitrates every day! until you see them start, then you know your cycle started.. then keep testing for (Nitrates, nitrites and ammonia) until there are no more present in the tank, At that point you are good to go! try adding in 1 fish every couple of weeks to prevent water quality issues :P

Hope this helps ya!

Thanks
Mike

[awcrimety]

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the help! Few things more I'd like to clarify. The sand bed for starters. How much sand should i use? It is a 50 gallon tank, does that mean 50 lbs of sand? I keep reading things about southdown, and the cheaper sands that are okay to use(in some peoples opinions). If I were to use say 45 lbs of southdown, and 5 lbs of live sand, is that okay? Also, would i put the live sand on top of the southdown, or does it not matter?

LR, I plan to buy probably from ORG. That will be cured, right? So that will help my cycle, or hurt the rock? I got a little confused on that bit,...sorry ;) And I will be adding the rock slowly, as I don't have a million dollars to fill it all at once ;) That doesn't hurt anything does it? If so i may have to postpone this plan while i save

After I have got my salinity to an appropriate level. And I have added the sand. Can i add the rock right away? After the cycle is when the clean up crew can go in? Or before? I have read on some of these forums that people are dumping in sand, rock, clean up, and fish,...all in the first week?!? That is not my plan, but i would like an idea of the order in which i can do things. Thanks again

Oops, one more question.

I have a couple big pieces of tufa rock kicking around. Can this be used in a SW?

[Michael_Lambert]

Sand bed, for a 50G tank I'm not 100% sure, But you want to get at least 4 inches of sand, So most likely 100 pounds should do it. and seeding it with live sand is the best, I use alot of different sands, i use Crushed coral in one tank, Southdown in another and Bomix in another.. lol, and they all work great.. i like the finner stuff much better!

Live rock from ORG is great, depending on when you buy it... just talk to tom or flavio and tell them you want cured stuff.. they could always hold some for you if they don't have it, Not sure when they get there deliveries. and adding it bit by bit is fine, so by doing that you are going to run the mechanical filters so just don't start adding corals other than softies like mushrooms until you get the filters off.

Yes after the sand and water salt are in and at the right temp and salinity then go ahead and dump in the rocks.. :) the clean up crew will go into the tank once the tank has completely cycled as they will be delicate and could die if there are big changes in the tank!

As for doing it all right away!
you need to see who they are, There are some of us out there like myself who will do it but its from another tank so its all Mature! like i setup a new 30G tank and dumped in live sand from my other tanks and rocks and water so it had all the bacteria that i needed to maintain an safe level in the tank and it has enough bacteria to compensate for the bio load from the fish!

See thats what you need to watch out for you add the fish slowly to allow your tank to build up the bacteria population it needs to break down the water ( Nitrates, nitrites and ammonias).


Mike.

[bertcmg]

I was in the same situation when I stated a reef

I had a Brakish tank with three puffers

After Initailly deciding to acclimate them to SW but I ended up I trading them back to the store ( with much sorrow because they were the best lil fish I've had )

Anyway I would do as TOOLOUD says and slowly remove mechanical filtration

Also I would suggest that gather the substrate, bag it and use it temporarily until in the refugium or sump the bacteria builds up in the main tanks substrate.

I think this would really help in the transition and reduce cycle time


Bert

[awcrimety]

Thanks mike!

Bert,...these lil puffers are great!!! I am not going to convert them though. I have a 20 gallon FW tank that will be turning brackish. My two lil puffers (one Figure 8, one gsp both about 1 1/2") have been stunted somehow in their growth as they have not grown at all in about 9 months, and i've only had them a year. And two butterfly gobies will go and live in that tank. I also have two monos that outgrowing the tank, so they will go back to the store. Now i just have to get rid of the pirahnas in the 20!

As far as getting rid of the mechanical filtration, you're just talking about removing the media from them, right? I will do this as tooloud has advised, but it brings up another question for me. Which media should i use? I have read to only use carbon when there is a problem? Does this apply to my situation? And should i use those bioballs? and sponges....that's it, right?

And lastly,...i don't have a sump or a refugium,...is this a problem?


thanks

[Michael_Lambert]

Use nothing in the filter.. Keep it empty and use it for water flow. Now people use Carbon when there is something in the water, Either a foul oder or stray colorations or you see your fish or corals stressed out. Would not run it now as there is no need.

By running any Media you are trapping waste and food that is not being broken down so thats where you get the nitrates from.

[bertcmg]

You could just use some bagged substrate in the filter plus some foam ( to be cleaned regularly )

I personally dont like hang-on filters

I would use a bigger pump in a closed loop config for current




Also a sump/ refuge is a easy thing to setup using some Plexiglass and some old Aquarium ( we all have a few lying around )

You will be able to hide all the unsightly heaters and skimmers also you can add some foam in the sump occasionally when something stirs things up

I do not think that you will see much of a cycle if you did it that way

Just keep adding about 10Lbs of rock each week. eventually you will have no need for a filter

I can't advise of on anything apart from the initial set-up because I am new to corals but not to aquariums


Bert

[Michael_Lambert]

You could just use some bagged substrate in the filter plus some foam ( to be cleaned regularly )

Again this is fine if you are running a fish only tank, but not for Corals unless you do clean it regularly and that would be by taking a bucket of tank water and then rinsing out the media in that bucket every day :( can become overwhelming. See the problem is the waste gets trapped in the media and there is nothing in there to break it down like the bacteria on the live rock or the cleanup crew in the tank and so on .

[ajx22]

FYI...

For a 48 x 12 tank to have a proper DSB (which is to be between 4" and 6"):

4" DSB would equal - 120lbs sand
6" DSB would equal - 180lbs sand

As a new SW aquarium keeper...Get a decent skimmer immediately. Maintaining a tank without a skimmer requires more time and knowledge, and for the learning process - it's a much better and safer bet to utilize a good skimmer.

Strongly consider drilling the tank NOW - as you will want it this way in the end. Better now then once you have a bunch of livestock and rock to keep alive. Also look into getting at least a small sump to help with water volume, as a 50Gal is very small and even a snail death will add noticable ammonia to the water parameters. The addition of a sump (and refugium) will not only make for a better environment - it will also work as a safe-guard against water parameter problems.

Talk to Flavio & Tom @ ORG and they can assist you with these and other needs for the tank (including the drilling).

HTH,

[awcrimety]

okay,...i'll go with a 4" DSB,...120 lbs. great!

I really have no plans to put a sump on. I can appreciate what you are saying about it's benefits,...but it's not in my plan. Like you all keep saying,...i have only a 50 gallon tank. (which is the biggest i have room for right now anyway) So if the marine bug really hits me, and i want more, than i will get a bigger tank later, rather than add to this one......does that make sense? (it seems to make sense to me)

The protein skimmer,...like i said, i was REALLY hoping to not have to get one right away,...as i don't have a lot of money, and it seems to me that my money would be better spent on LR. If you insist on me getting one, i might be able to find a used one somewhere <hint hint> ;)

Okay,...and for the filters,...as soon as my salinity is where it should be,...i should remove all the media? even though i will have limited live sand and rock? I still have the confused on that one.

thanks again

[Michael_Lambert]

As for the sump.. The main benifits for it is becouse you do have a smaller tank so it would add water volume to your tank giving you a larger margine of error, Meaning you would be able to see somthing going wrong with regular testing and be able to fix it faster rather than having lesser water volume.

120pounds of sand is a great thing!

the protien skimmer is not needed, it make life easier, Most will recommend it myself included as most newbies to the hobby dont have the time and experience to maintain a tank with out, But i would recommend if you do not run a skimmer yet setup a maintance scehdual and stick to it.. do 10Gs of water changes every 2 weeks atleast! and keep the BioLoad low.. untill you can get it. !
As for the filters.. You can run the media for now with it being fish only, Untill you can get the live rock.. Most fish only tanks can handle the nitrates where as to keeping corals they do not. So as long as you keep it fish only and like i said maybe if you keep a couple of mushrooms. But when you get the live rock into the tank and decide to start keep corals make sure you clean it out and remove the filter media.. unless you are going to cleaning it daily!

Thanks
Mike

[Sohal Tang]

Hi Logan....

welcome to the reef hobby almost.....lets say the saltwater hobby then.....in any case...welcome aboard!

I just thought I would mention that I have 2 brand new
bags of Southdown Playsand 50lbs per bag that you could
buy cheap.....lets say $20 per bag if you wish.

I am going to Toronto either this Fri or Sat and could perhaps
rendezvous somewhere to deliver so that you dont have
to drive to Collingwood...

Just thought I would run that idea past you....

if interested email me.

Good luck! Go Slow is what I recommend.....the slower you
go the more success you will likely have.....rush it...and WAMMMMMM you will find out very quickly the challenges
the hobby can throw at ya...of course there is a GOOD side to that..the learning side hehehe....but...ya may as well learn
from some people that did it WRONG and not make those
same mistakes eh..hehehehe...

Also..have you ever used COPPER in your tank? If not...DONT...or it will be damn near impossible to turn into a successful reef ....

good luck
Tim

[awcrimety]

Okay,...didn't mean to start a war ;)

Tooloud,...10G every two weeks. I usually change 5G every week. This will suffice? I'll start without the skimmer, but i'll be prepared to run out and get one ;) And i will remove the filter media from my canister, as it's a pain in the ass to open all the time. And i'll keep media in the aquaclear for now. (err, when i get started, anyway)

Tim,...thanks! Let me think about the sand though,..for a few days anyway. If you don't hear from me in time, don't worry. I don't mind driving,....assuming i can ever get my CRX back on the road (i love that car) I'm stuck driving an accent right now :(

okay, thanks again everyone,...keep the advice coming
:thanks:

[Michael_Lambert]

Changing water, depends one what your water is like.. Start with the 5% water changes and if you cant get the Nitrates down, then might need to do more! .. I just like to say 10% as its a safe starting point.. Some need more and some dont do water changes.. lol, depends on your tank and whats in it!

[awcrimety]

well, you had said 10 every 2 weeks, i said 5 every '1' week ;)

same thing. but yes, while keeping an eye on the levels.

i was just concerned incase there was some sort of case where too frequent (weekly) changes might mess something up.

:D

[Sohal Tang]

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[Chrismo]

Awcriminity,
As you can see people on the board here are passionate about reef tanks! :)

Everyone has their own way of doing things, and advise, as you probobly do about brackish fishkeeping. but if you hear all the voices, you'll find that there is a "majority standard" in reefkeeping. It's a good idea to lear what Most people do, and derrivate from that as you wish.

Most people run skimmers. Most have sandbeds, most keep tanks bigger thn 50 gallons and have sumps. temperature aprox 80 degrees and, 4-5 watts of light per gallon or so. Most people dont use tapwater etc.

I have a successfull skimmerless sumples 20gallon tank, with a 3 inch sandbed, so a 50 gallon tank is certainly do-able!

So anyway, heres the 2¢ of this reef obsessed hobbiest of 2 years.
Sandbeds are great, and I think more important that even rock for filtration. I would assume that you currant substrate is to some degree "alive" with good bacteria, If you keep a few pounds of that in there and throw some southdown on top of that, it'll help seed the new sand.. as well, and new rocks you get will seed the sand in the case that the low salinity sand doesnt convert to real saltwater. (I have never had brackish)

I like whoevers-it-was's idea of bagging your existing sand and leaving it in the tank while the new sand gets going. If you do this, make sure its a mesh bag though - it needs some circulation or it will die and stink up the joint.

(By the way when you add the sand your tank will turn into white soup for a few days fish will likely survive in it but wont like it, - in my experience)

A skimmer would smooth out the cycles in your establishing tank, but if you dont want to use one, make sure not to overfeed in the begginning. if your gunna feed a lot then slowly ramp up your feeding over months.

Dr shimek's book "Sandbed Secrets" is on sale at Big als in scarborough. It's kinda the bible of sandbeds but there are new fresher testaments and he, and "they" have added since.

Very little in this hobby is proven inconclusively, and even those who publish their data in a scientific fashion can only guess how it applies to real life reef aquariums. Personal experiences shed light where proven facts are still unestablished.

Here's a non-proven theory to annoy people: Sandbeds absorb trace elements (like metals), and then after years of holding them suddenly & mysteriously release them into the water, causeing a situation called "old tank syndrome" where an old tank starts having a rough time.

It's an idea that even Dr Ron S. has wondered aloud about. Still, most people agree that sandbeds are the easiest & safest way to keep a reef.

Goodluck!

[Sohal Tang]

Very Well Said Chrismo!

Yep...there are many ways to skin a cat in this hobby...

Best thing to do, I find, is to double and even TRIPLE CHECK
all advises and opinions before you adopt them.......and.....
even after you do that you STILL may change the pattern
down the road....because what does NOT make sense to
you today...MAYyyyy make sense down the road...

In a nutshell, here is what I found out with the years I have
spent in the hobby...

#1 skimmers, in my humble opinion..and I am sure no expert...are a critical importance to a successful reef.
Spending a few extra bucks on this item I dont think can
EVER be a BAD idea...but..as long as it does not take
the mustard off the hotdog.

#2 lighting..again...depending on the final result you want
is an item that money is probably NEVERRR wasted on.
You basically get the RESULT you PAY FOR. This does not
again mean..go into the poor house for lights...but the better
the lights....the smoother the journey....if you were buying
a car...I will call the lights the ENGINE. The filtration ie
protein skimmer..I would call the AIR CONDITIONING..NO YOU DONT NEED IT..but...it is a loooonnnng journey...you may
as well go in style and comfort and your tank will likely
appreciate the better water conditions...again which is debatable and I am not an expert...just a hobbiest who has been around
the block a little in the hobby from purely a hobby point of view.

#3 SIZE.....well....that one there I may be on the minority
at this point...I had a big 180 which I loved so dearly....I
sold it and downsized to a 50 gallon...and now I am with
a 90 gallon....and out of the 3....honestly I am having
more of a fun time with the 90....I guess because I know
that in the long run I will be able to FILL IT properly with
ENOUGH ROCK, ENOUGH LIGHT, and ENOUGH FILTRATION...whereas the bigger the tank..the more expensive to run it properly usually..again..there are exceptions..but this
is my general thought on the subject....SO GO BIG OR GO HOME...I GUESS IF I WAS LOADED I WOULD HAVE A
2,000 GALLON...but I have learned that a 50 gallon reef
is absolutely SUPER if done right ...and it truly has it's benefits
over a bigger tank....keeping an open mind on the subject.

Good luck!
now..DOUBLE AND TRIPLE CHECK THE ABOVE because myself
am NOTTTT an expert nor would I ever claim to be .

Have fun!
enjoy the hobby!
Spend big bucks and help our economy!!!! HEHE
and buy WALT SMITH ROCK!!!

Tim
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[ajx22]

Any further to the dispute about whether DSB's work - and/or are a "Ticking Time Bomb" can be seen:

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3044

All further posts are to address the initial posters question.

Thank you,

[awcrimety]

Yes, i'm getting some great advice here. The problem, as you all have mentioned and seen a million times i'm sure, is all the DIFFERENT advice. So i'm taking it all in, matching it all up. I'm sure i'll come up with something that works for me!

I'm not sure if everyone is still with me on my original post though. The responses seem to be getting more into me having a reef tank. At this point I'm only starting a FOWLR. From everything i have read and learned and been told, i will definetely get a protein skimmer if i ever turn this into a reef tank of any sorts. I just don't want to spend the money on one RIGHT NOW if i don't have to. ;) Once my FOWLR is running well with no problems, i may look into getting some of these mushrooms or easier corals some of you have mentioned that i may be able to have. But by that time, i'm sure i'll have a better idea of what the hell i'm talking about ;)

I don't think i want to drill this tank, as this is the biggest i can have in this apartment, and whenever i will have more room i'm sure i'll want a bigger tank for saltwater, and i can convert this one back to brackish!

Also,...there has been talk of my keeping my current substrate in the tank (whether in a bag, the filter, or on the bottom)
It's just GRAVEL. I can't mix the gravel and sand together can i? would i want to? If it were already sand, sure, i could see that.

I'm going to move all the fish out of the tank, when my salinity reaches 1.015 or 1.016. And it will be empty from then until i get full SW, and then i'll add the sand, and some LR. I'm beginning to think though, that it will just go through a cycle as though it were a completely new setup, but if that's the way it is, than oh well. Hopefully it won't take as long though.

Thanks again everyone!!!

[Michael_Lambert]

No you do not want to keep the Gravel, as for keeping it in a bag they are suggesting that i think becouse you do have bacteria growth on there.. but you will be adding in the new sand, live rock and filters ( becouse it is FISH ONLY) so you will be cycling the tank anyways some what! so you are going to get the growth of new bacteria!

Get your tank up to 79 Degress, 1.024 SG 8.4 PH and zero Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates! . and you are good to go start adding fish :)

[awcrimety]

my ph is at 7.6 right now. the sand will help buffer it up, right?

[Michael_Lambert]

The sand will help Keep the water buffered! .. but you should not be relying on the sand to do it! Ideally when you add more salt it will raise the PH if not you will want to look at somthing like Kents "Superbuffer DKH"

[awcrimety]

Okay, great. I haven't tested very often lately as there have been no problems. Now that i'm making the change, i will be testing every other day or so, as i make my changes. ;) I will keep an eye on this. Ideally i want

amonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 0
ph 8.4
phosphors 0
and salinity 1.024

right? what else should i test?

[Michael_Lambert]

you mean Phosphates right ?

thats all you want to test for to start with! once you get hte tank up and running then you want to be testing for the nitrates, ammonia and nitrites as they cycle untill they are compleletly gone..

then add fish, now keep and eye on the nitrates.. as you may need to do more waterchanges depending on the bioload!

[awcrimety]

yeah yeah phosphates,....it's getting late :thanks:

[ajx22]

Originally posted by awcrimety
From everything i have read and learned and been told, i will definetely get a protein skimmer if i ever turn this into a reef tank of any sorts. I just don't want to spend the money on one RIGHT NOW if i don't have to. ;)

In all honsety - I would suggest the skimmer as much-if not more to someone who was keeping a FOWLR. Most people who keep reefs - have a lower bioload due to having less fish. Fish are what will polute your water - and the skimmer will help remove exactly those polutants.

It can be done without one...but I can assure you that you will have more success and a more stable/healthy tank if you do add one.

JMO...

[Chrismo]

Skimmers are Especilly good with carnivours like puffers, or eels or triggers which tend to be messy fish.

But I think you were gunna get gobies? Gobies are pretty small in general. Either way a skimmer is good for FOWLR.

If you mix your sand with much gravel it can clump over time more which is bad because air cant get in there.

Chris