Seahorses without food

[donna53w]

I am seriously considering a seahorse setup. The only concern I have is that from my research, these guys need to be fed 2x a day, every day! We have a cabin at a lake, and spend lots of summer week-ends there. Is there any humane way to keep seahorses with this kind of a schedule? Does everyone feed 2x a day, without fail ... or is it permissable to miss a day? Of course I am talking about tank bred, not wild caught. Are any particular types of SH more easily adaptable to irregular feeding schedule? If there is no other solution, I would gladly look for someone to babysit (feed them) regularly while we're away.

[tankies]

i think the SH r notorious at that..they need to feed all the time.
what abt hookin up that hang-on bbs hatchery when ur out....that will provide constant food..then when ur back..feed them healthier food.

oh yeah...im considering putting up as well..i just need to find a place to put the tank.

[mark0933]

They can go a day without food every now and then (even recommended by some) - I would not add the BBS hatcher though, it could/will add bacteria to the water and cause polution issues (and frankly they don't work all that well). I would try to find a sitter if you are looking at being away from home more than overnight though.

Best horse would be an erectus (or Reidi) in my opinion.

Mark

PS - you aren't planning on adding to a reef tank are you?

[donna53w]

PS - you aren't planning on adding to a reef tank are you?

Thanks for checking up on that! :D No, I would be starting out with a new setup. I'm thinking a 35g tall tank, all new equipment, all new LR, new sandbed ... should it be a deep bed? Do you have a sump, refugium? Skimmer? types of lights?

I've read a lot, but am looking for tried and experienced information.

Thanks and yes ... a pony-sitter will be the best solution.

Donna

[StevieK]

Wondering if you are implying that it would not be wise to add a seahorse tank on the end of a reef tank (two separate tanks) as this was the setup that i was planning on doing.

S.

[tankies]

They can go a day without food every now and then (even recommended by some) - I would not add the BBS hatcher though, it could/will add bacteria to the water and cause polution issues (and frankly they don't work all that well). I would try to find a sitter if you are looking at being away from home more than overnight though.

Best horse would be an erectus (or Reidi) in my opinion.

Mark

PS - you aren't planning on adding to a reef tank are you?

thx as well on my part..as im considering setting up one

[mark0933]

Wondering if you are implying that it would not be wise to add a seahorse tank on the end of a reef tank (two separate tanks) as this was the setup that i was planning on doing.

S.

Well, I had that (with not good consequences) - I don't know if that was the reason for my horses demise or some other condition, but the warmer temperature of a reef tank will speed up the metabolism of a horse and also make them more prone to bacterial infections. If you have the ability, keep on a separate cooler system IMO.

As for lights, sand bed, etc, I found the horses are relatively uncaring about any of that, but they are sloppy eaters, so there will be need for a cleanup crew (or your bristle worm population will explode), and you are bound to get into water quality issues due to excess food - just think how much food you are putting into this tank vs a normal reef tank - so I would say a deep sand bed for denitrification (but that is just my opinion) and a good cleanup crew of nass snails, brittle stars, cerith snails and then regular algae snails like a mexican turbo (no hermits - they are known to pick at horses)

One other thing, mysis is pretty greasy, so without an overflow of some sort, you will get a slime on the surface, so go with an overflow and sump just as you would for a reef.

Hope this helps,

Mark

[donna53w]

Mark, thanks so much for your valuable information. I am going to start gathering equipment, tank, liverock, etc. and then go through the process of the cycle, again! I will take my time and do everything properly ... the 1st setup we have was a real learning experience ...

I had thought of using some water from our 50g tank, to start the new one but now that I read that you didn't recommend the side by side situation, perhaps this isn't a good idea, either. The tanks will not be side by side, they will be totally separate units.

For 35 gal, could you recommend sump, fuge sizes for optimum quality? Would I be able to house 6 seahorses in this tank size? Or is that pushing it.... going with the 2 types that you have already suggested.

Donna

[Roger]

Hi Donna,
I'm thinking about this too. One option I am considering is ordering copepods/amphipods from ReefCrew. I am looking into adding them before going away for a few days, or trying to establish a reproducing population in the tank with macroalgae. I have not done a lot of research yet (tank won't be setup for a few months), but am curious to the comments of others more that know more....
Roger

[Reeftastic]

mark's awesome, he's been breeding seahorses for a while (i dunno if he has any 2nd gen adults yet?).

if ur looking to purchase, talk to Gene at Coralscaping he might be able to help.

i believe Zach (patwa?) has his reef plumbed to his ricordia/macro tank full of seahorse, u can see his video on reefvideos.com

seahorse prefer lower temperatures though for what i know, as mark said ur best off a seperate didicated tank.

dispite popular belief i believe they prefer a strong current with areas of low current, and lots of hitching posts. do ur research on seahorses.org they have loads of info there

[mark0933]

The size of tank required to provide a breeding population is prohibitive - think of what space is required for 1 manderin to have a self sustaining population of pods, then multiply it a few times because horses eat more than manderins and you'll likely have more than one horse.

As for ordering live pods, first the cost will kill you, next, you don't really want to start feeding your "trained on frozen" captive bred horses live food, because on your return they may refuse to revert back to frozen - kinda like once you have had steak and lobster on a regular basis, it sucks to go back to kraft dinner :)

Mark

[mark0933]

mark's awesome, he's been breeding seahorses for a while (i dunno if he has any 2nd gen adults yet?).

Just so you know, I am no longer breeding horses (or even own any at the present) - I had several erectus same as Yvan's but mine would not breed (they were housed in a 110 tall tank) and as mine were plumbed into my sump and shared reef water, they did eventually catch something and perrished.

I never got any horses past about 12 weeks old, as I simply didn't have the knowledge to start out with when I had my Fuscus (which size wise were the best shot I had at raising any), then those horses died due to me doing something stupid. I replaced them with Reidi and they are virtually impossible to raise in my opinion, so I got really frustrated.

I then got the erectus and with my new son, couldn't invest the time to really focus on them.

If I do go back into horses, which is likely down the road, I will be getting pot bellies and they will be in a dedicated tank with a UV filter and a chiller taking the temp right down to about 70 degrees.

Just posting this so no-one thinks I am a know it all who has really succeeded, I failed miserably with horses (but still love them as a species) and just don't want people to do the same things I did.

Mark

[Carant]

if ur looking to purchase, talk to Gene at Coralscaping he might be able to help.

Actually that is Dene at Coralscaping

Bruce

[in_flight]

i believe Zach (patwa?) has his reef plumbed to his ricordia/macro tank full of seahorse, u can see his video on reefvideos.com


it's actually marte's tank, lukan here on AP

i would concur with a dedicated tank for the horses, they are nowhere near quick enough to be able to fight for food amongst the quicker fish in a reef tank and the flow will cause some major problems

i have gone through 3 pairs of horses in the last 2 years. 2 kuda pairs and 1 reidi's. the reidi's were wildcaught from vietnam and i was never able to wean them off live into frozen and they succumbed to starvation...i will no longer be buying horses without seeing them eat frozen first.

my oldest pair of kuda's i had for close to 2 years, not sure what happened but their health slowly deteriorated and they died a few weeks ago. the other pair were not healthy when i bought them and they never fully recovered

so my new setup was created to address some of the problems i had before, it's drilled with overflow and sump, quality skimmer, no powerheads and horse oriented aquascaping. it also uses a ranco temp controller with the help of 3 fans to keep the temp at most at 75, 77 during the summer months

Dene's got a pair reserved for me which i'll be picking up in the next couple of weeks and Yvan hasn't gotten back to me to see if he's willing to ship some of his ponies to ontario for me

on a sidenote, i fed my horses 2-3x per day and when we went away i had a family member feed them so i can't comment on lapses in feeding schedules


hth

[in_flight]

in hindsight, i don't think that the vietnamese horses were reidi's, they were marked as such but it was pointed out to me that they were most likely also be kuda's

[donna53w]

I am finding this thread so informational and helpful. Thanks everyone!!:thumbsup: As with all things salt-water related, there are a lot of differing opinions, and it's very helpful to hear from those who have had problems, too, ... it's just as educational. Experience gained from others is so valuable, and input on this subject will hopefully, help us to sort through and make the best choices and decisions from the start. Please keep the thread going with more info and experiences. Thanks again.
Donna

[Dene]

mark's awesome, he's been breeding seahorses for a while (i dunno if he has any 2nd gen adults yet?).

Just so you know, I am no longer breeding horses (or even own any at the present) - I had several erectus same as Yvan's but mine would not breed (they were housed in a 110 tall tank) and as mine were plumbed into my sump and shared reef water, they did eventually catch something and perrished.

I never got any horses past about 12 weeks old, as I simply didn't have the knowledge to start out with when I had my Fuscus (which size wise were the best shot I had at raising any), then those horses died due to me doing something stupid. I replaced them with Reidi and they are virtually impossible to raise in my opinion, so I got really frustrated.

I then got the erectus and with my new son, couldn't invest the time to really focus on them.

If I do go back into horses, which is likely down the road, I will be getting pot bellies and they will be in a dedicated tank with a UV filter and a chiller taking the temp right down to about 70 degrees.

Just posting this so no-one thinks I am a know it all who has really succeeded, I failed miserably with horses (but still love them as a species) and just don't want people to do the same things I did.

Mark

Mark, I think you need to be commended on rearing the fry to the 3 month stage.....especially with no knowledge to start out with. That is excellent.

[Dene]

mark's awesome, he's been breeding seahorses for a while (i dunno if he has any 2nd gen adults yet?).

if ur looking to purchase, talk to Gene at Coralscaping he might be able to help.

i believe Zach (patwa?) has his reef plumbed to his ricordia/macro tank full of seahorse, u can see his video on reefvideos.com

seahorse prefer lower temperatures though for what i know, as mark said ur best off a seperate didicated tank.

dispite popular belief i believe they prefer a strong current with areas of low current, and lots of hitching posts. do ur research on seahorses.org they have loads of info there

Tropical species of seahorses do best at 74-77F.

As far as current, there has been some speculation that horses like stronger current, with areas of low circulation. However, this has not been our experience in a closed aquarium, we run our tanks at a very low flow rate 1-3x tank turnover, and even with such a low flow rate all of our horses pick their favorite hitching spot in areas of the tank with the least flow. Even when they corral they do so in the lowest flow areas of the tank. I would not consider running the tanks at any more than 3x tank turnover and even less if you plan on breeding.

[Dene]

They can go a day without food every now and then (even recommended by some) - I would not add the BBS hatcher though, it could/will add bacteria to the water and cause polution issues (and frankly they don't work all that well). I would try to find a sitter if you are looking at being away from home more than overnight though.

Best horse would be an erectus (or Reidi) in my opinion.

Mark

PS - you aren't planning on adding to a reef tank are you?

thx as well on my part..as im considering setting up one

Yes seahorses can go a day or two without food if need be, I agree with Mark.

The bit about a BBS hatcher being added to the system is a big NO NO! Adult seahorses should never be fed BBS or even adult artemia, with two exceptions:

1) Dwarf seahorse adults- should be fed BBS and artemia in the development stages Instar I, II, III enriched with enrichment high in DHA.

2) Gut loading artemia with medication to administer internally to a sick seahorse

[mark0933]

[quote=Coralscaping;243894
Mark, I think you need to be commended on rearing the fry to the 3 month stage.....especially with no knowledge to start out with. That is excellent.[/quote]

Thanks, just wish I could have managed to get over that last nutrition hurdle when bbs was just not enough for them to eat. I was almost there with the frozen shaved mysis and cyclopeeze with my last batch of fuscus, but had an amonia spike in the baby kreisel and they all (I think I had about 18 at 10 weeks) died within one day while I was at work. That was a heartbreaker as the female had died a week or so after they were born and I knew that was the last batch I would be able to try to raise and they were doing so well.

Learned lots though, but as I said, I don't even have enough time to breed cardinals right now (and they are comparatively easy to raise) let alone dedicate time to horses, but we'll see what the future holds.

Mark

[Dene]

[quote=Coralscaping;243894
Mark, I think you need to be commended on rearing the fry to the 3 month stage.....especially with no knowledge to start out with. That is excellent.

Thanks, just wish I could have managed to get over that last nutrition hurdle when bbs was just not enough for them to eat. I was almost there with the frozen shaved mysis and cyclopeeze with my last batch of fuscus, but had an amonia spike in the baby kreisel and they all (I think I had about 18 at 10 weeks) died within one day while I was at work. That was a heartbreaker as the female had died a week or so after they were born and I knew that was the last batch I would be able to try to raise and they were doing so well.

Learned lots though, but as I said, I don't even have enough time to breed cardinals right now (and they are comparatively easy to raise) let alone dedicate time to horses, but we'll see what the future holds.

Mark[/quote]

The nutrition hurdle is the key, alot of information about nutrition published on the web is pretty well old school. Over the last few years we've learned that high levels of DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) are needed. It is a well documented fact that DHA rich fatty acids are required for the proper development of marine larval. Through retroconversion most marine organisms can convert DHA into sufficient levels of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), but they can not convert EPA into sufficient amounts of DHA which eventually results in a DHA deficient diet, unless a sufficient DHA supplement is added to the diet.

Most information published on the web concentrates of HUFA (highly unsaturated fatty acids) only.

We have done alot of work on our nutrition and can proudly say that with Dwarf seahorses we are currently running a 100% success rate with only 3 still borns to date, and remarkable growth rates in the fry. In fact, we have fry that are nearly adult size. With Erectus we anticipate that we will be able to maintain a steady 75%+ success rate.

Hope you get into ab's.

[donna53w]

This feeding of the young seems way too complicated, so is it better to just get females then, if I don't want babies?

[Dene]

The nutrition for fry can be a bit tedious....yes, but it is a fantastic experience, which we highly recommend.

If you get males and females you will experience their enchanting mating dances, which in itself is very intriguing and captivating when you begin to understand the seahorse. If you absolutely do not want fry, then yes you can go with two females or two males. Females tend to be more active than the males. They also tend to be more affectionate to their keepers, ie. they will come and play in your fingers and will often hitch to your finger, showing their affection. Males can get quite affectionate as well but not near as active.

[donna53w]

The nutrition for fry can be a bit tedious....yes, but it is a fantastic experience, which we highly recommendI

Coralscaping, how long does it take to rear the young to the point that they will eat frozen mysis? I have an extra tank that measure 16'Hx24"w x12"d .... would that house baby seahorses?

Having male & female definitely sounds a lot more interesting!

[donna53w]

correction that tank is 16 inches high, not feet!:oops:

[Dene]

The nutrition for fry can be a bit tedious....yes, but it is a fantastic experience, which we highly recommendI

Coralscaping, how long does it take to rear the young to the point that they will eat frozen mysis? I have an extra tank that measure 16'Hx24"w x12"d .... would that house baby seahorses?

Having male & female definitely sounds a lot more interesting!

That varies with broods, some take to thinly sliced mysis as early as 6 weeks others take forever. The key to training them to eat frozen is not to rush it; I believe that far too many hobbyists start to panic and try to rush the frozen food training.

Yes, you could raise the fry in that size of a tank, but I would plan for a screened overflow tube of some sort with a return flow, a small sump with filtration and definitely a small UV sterilizer.

[donna53w]

Thanks again! I am going to do some more reading and research on seahorses but I really do want to want to give this my best effort. I live in Medicine Hat, Alberta, and chances of finding anyone around with seahorses is probably near to impossible. But with time, planning, the proper set up and knowledge, I will do this!

Do you ship 'horses and what is the waiting period like? I do have lots of time as I haven't even begun to set up.

[Dene]

yes we do ship seahorses, but we do have a waiting list.....best to add your name here

http://coralscaping.com/seahorses_announcement.html