Loud pump

[Mike]

Hmm.... okay, I think I've got everything set up now on my 90 gallon, got the sump installed on the weekend, got everything plumbed, I've been making RO water for the past couple of days, and finally have the tank and sump filled - my problem is when I plugged the pump (GEN-X PCX 40) into my newly installed GFI outlet, I was expecting a quiet hum, and what I got was closer to a roar. A LOT of something that sounds like fan noise. Is this normal? Maybe there's an air bubble trapped in it? Is there something I've forgotten to do? Bought the pump used (almost new), so I didn't get an instruction manual. Any help would be much appreciated, as I definitely CAN NOT live with this noise, as the tank is fairly close to my bedroom, and there is NO way I'll be able to sleep with that going on. Thanks!
:help:

[Mike]

:confused:
Okay... it's 2:30 am and I'm STILL up playing around with this thing.... Had a really disturbing thought... I'm EXTREMELY space limited underneath the tank - the sump/refugium is 36" long x 15" wide, the tank is a 90 (48" x 18" x 24"), so underneath the stand there is only about 46". I got a slightly bigger sump than I was originally intending because I wanted a fair bit of room for a refugium - it's a really nice acrylic unit I picked up from Oakville Reef Gallery. The way the plumbing is is set up is a 2" (I think) bulkhead fitting out of the sump to a 1" or so reducer to a quick disconnect/ball valve, to another reducer down to 3/4", to a 90º ELBOW.... to the pump, and then through another 3/4" quick disconnect/ball valve back to the return to the tank... Could the elbow be causing a reduction in flow causing the pump to cavitate? There's one heck of a lot of flow coming out of it, though... Does anyone else have an elbow going to a pump like this? When I close either ball valve slightly the noise of the pump gets louder.... But it sounds kind of like a bearing or a really loud fan... what would cavitation sound like? If I need to mount the pump in line with the sump and do away with the elbow, I need to get a smaller sump.... that means draining everything, taking the tank off the stand, taking the centre support out of the stand (again).... crap... I REALLY don't want to have to do that... and my girlfriend would NOT be impressed! She spent all weekend helping me haul water... Or I suppose I could get a submersible pump and put it right in the sump.... but I'd prefer to stay away from the submersible return pump idea, I think.... on the bright side the tank is full of water now and hasn't yet crashed through the floor! yet... oh my...

[Daniel Schubert]

Mike

Is the sound coming from the pump or is it more gurling noise from the overflow, the pump itself should be fairly quite. What is the water level by the pump inlet, if too low the pump could be suching air.

[ScottM]

Restricting inputs on pumps can certainly increase noise level (and greatly reduce the pump's life expectancy) - i typically go up one pipe size on the input (so for a MAK-4 i'd use 1" all the way to the snout then downsize to 3/4"). Aside from that, it prolly wouldn't hurt to check the bearings. It runs 2 very common bearings ($2 each for a replacement) but can be a PITA to replace. I replaced 2 on a used mak-4 i bought and it made my pump MUCH more tolerable in terms of noise pollution.

HTH's

Scott

[Dman]

Mike,
Anyway you could send an audio file? Say 20-30 seconds worth. The thing with motors is you really can't tell what's going on with them unless someone who knows about pumps hears it.
Also, you can tell if the pump is cavitating if there is a s**t load of bubbles coming out the exhaust pipe.
There could be some ancillary vibration noise, try muffling (grabbing) sections of the inlet piping, if that doesn't work; try lifting the pump itself a couple of thou, say 1/16th of an inch to get it off the stand.
Lastly, if all that fails, grab the motor housing and give ‘er a feel......a MAK 4 should give off a light vibration, but you should feel the power.

If it feels like the motor:

Remove the pump from the plumbing loop and run it dry for a second or two. If it continues to make a racket;
Disassemble the pump housing (the plastic piece that everything is threaded to) then plug the pump in.

CAUTION: keep all loose articles of clothing and hair far away from the spinning interior magnet, failure to do so can result is SERIOUS bodily injury. Also, stay BEHIND the pump when you do this.

This should let you know right away where the problem is, so literally plug it in and then right back out again.

If the pump runs quiet then the problem is in the impeller section.

Impeller errors:

Disassemble, clean and inspect all components for signs of wear and clean all calcium buildup (soaking in straight vinegar is good for this)


Motor errors:

Try a little light machine oil at the oiling points

An electrical motor consists of a main housing or casing, a front cap (where the impeller attaches) and a vent cap (where the impeller doesn’t attach )

Check the vent cap for dents and small rodents 

The oiling points are little holes where the two caps meet the casing add one drop at a time in each end until the motor quiets down. If this doesn’t work the motor my need some professional work done on it.

I think that should cover pump noise control errors 101.

Good luck

Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

Hi Daniel,

The sound is definitely coming from the pump. The overflow seems to be making a gurgling noise as well, but it's hard to hear over the pump. I think I'll have to adjust the airflow in the durso standpipe - the hole I drilled was 3/16" in the side of the cap through the pipe so I can turn it to adjust it, and my drain tube might be too long - it's about 2" from the bottom of the sump. But you can hardly hear the gurgling over the pump. I listened to it again this morning - I don't like to leave it running for too long in case I might damage the pump - it's a really loud "whine" - sounds more to me like a noise originating within the motor of the pump than anything else this morning, but I suppose it could still be cavitation. Before running the pump the water level in the last chamber of the overflow is about 10", but after running for about a minute it drops to 7". The top of the bulkhead fitting is about 4 1/2" from the bottom of the sump, so it is well submerged the whole time. This pump seems QUITE powerful. I'm very impressed by the amount of flow through the tank with just this running, actually I was quite shocked when I first started it up - I didn't expect this much flow. I'm hoping there's just something wrong with my pump, and I can get it fixed and keep the setup the way it is now. I'm awfully glad I've got those quick disconnects on both sides of the pump! But I'm concerned about the elbow limiting flow to the pump - has anyone had experience with this? Thanks!

[ScottM]

Another note regarding pump noise: Sometimes you can get a resonance depending on where your pump is located and how it's secured. Mine had a noticeable hum until i isolated it from the stand with some lightweight foam.

Scott

[Mike]

Wow - thanks guys! You typed all that while I was replying to Daniel. I don't have a microphone, but maybe I can pick up a cheap one today and try to send the audio file. There aren't any bubbles coming out of the return pipe.... The fittings are all larger until you get to the elbow...then it reduces down to the 3/4"... Maybe I should try to fit a 1" elbow in there and put the reducer after it... that sounds like a better idea. I tried lifting the pump last night, it didn't seem to make any difference. My feeling is it's a problem with the motor on the pump- sounds like it to me. I doubt there's any buildup in the impeller section - the fellow I bought the pump from said it was practically brand new, and it looks it. But I suppose there could be some damage in there or something.... maybe it sucked something up it shouldn't have.... Looks like I'll have a fun day disassembling my pump! Thanks for your advice! Listening to the setup again once I get the pump quieted down, I'll likely be putting a post up about "Loud overflow" - I think that will need some work as well, but first thing's first!

[Dman]

guys,
You should hear my 1/2 HP Iwaki, ya need earplugs around it :D
Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

I've got a 427 chev engine in my garage that's destined hopefully for a '68 camaro in the next year or so - I was thinking I could use that to run my pump for now... might be quieter...... and likely sound better, too!

[Chrismo]

If you have quick disconnects, why not take it to your bathtub, and run it without the elbow? See if that is the problem.

It's easier to fiddle where you are comfortable.

Chris

[Dman]

As the pump is not submersable, I'd be careful in the tub :D
Dman
:spin:

[Chrismo]

And I thought I would get razzed for "fiddleing" in the tub.
:mixed:

[Dman]

you can "fiddle" in the tub all ya want as long as the electrical devices are battery powered :D
Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

Well, I think I'll leave the "fiddling" in the tub to Chrismo.... :D
I got the audio file, had to zip it to attach it, but hopefully it works this time... came through kind of quiet, you have to turn it up pretty far to get the full effect.... but I'm pretty sure the pump is not supposed to sound like that.....

[Mike]

Hmm.... okay, I've got the pump apart, or at least the impeller section removed from the motor. The sound is definitely coming from the motor. When I spin it by hand it feels a bit gritty, or at least not as smooth as I would expect... and it makes a definite noise even spinning it by hand. I'm guessing bearings? Where can I get bearings for this pump (GEN-X PCX 40)? I don't see any oiling points on the case, and I haven't yet taken the motor apart - not sure if I should do that yet, perhaps I should take it somewhere for service. Hmm... well, this sucks. I thought I had gotten a good deal on this pump. Oh well. Thanks for all your advice everyone!

[Dman]

Mike,
I'm pretty sure on a motor this small it doesn't have bearings per se. Yes so you'll have to have some one take a look at it.
Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

Dman, did you hear the audio file I attached? What do you think... probably pretty hard to judge from that, though, I'd imagine.... I'm starting to think I got ripped off.... well, maybe it can be repaired and will still be cheaper than a new one...

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

hey mike,i know its not the plumbing as we have done many this way,never a problem,as long as the three quarter inch input is not reduced further,the pump looked fairly new,did it have water damage?weve run these for years with no problem,do you have a receipt from whoever the original retailer was.i know steve the owner at pacific coasr aquarium supply which supplies these pumps and hes a great person.maybe he can supply you with bearings,email and let me know and ill see if i can help. Flavio

[Mike]

Thanks Flavio - I've ruled out the plumbing too - it's definitely the motor on the pump. The plumbing and sump are excellent. Thanks very much! I'm sure glad I've got those quick disconnects! The pump shows no signs of water damage - it looks pretty much brand new, to me at least. I called and talked to Tom - I'm going to try to bring the pump down for you guys to look at either later this week or sometime next week after work. From the noise it makes, I doubt there's much that can be done, but I suppose you never know. Thanks a lot for your help!

Mike

[Wendy]

Having replaced the bearings on one of my MAK-4's, i can absolutely tell you it does have (sealed) bearings. They are one of the most common sizes (tho i can't recall the mm measurements offhand - take the bearings to a bearing place and have them size them). I emailed the importer of these pumps about bearings - their solution was to replace the pump (!). I however spent about $4 and replaced them. It runs as quietly as the MAK-4 pump i have.

Scott

[Ocean Images]

Mike, one thing you may want to look at are the bearings for that pump. Recently I replaced the two bearings in my GenX4 pump, these are easy to do and very cheap...I paid about $1.20 each from Princess Auto. The only sound mine makes now is the whirl of the motor fan...
Just a thought :)

[Daniel Schubert]

It definately sounds like the bearings to be as well

[Mike]

Thanks guys! I'll check that out - I'll be very happy if I can fix the thing for four bucks!

[Dman]

Mike,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. But after listening to the file, and wincing and checking to make sure my fillings were still in my molars, yup bearings and by the sounds of it, a pretty cheap fix to boot.
Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

Thanks! Yeah - I think it sounds a bit tinnier in the recording than it should - probably the cheap microphone I bought. I noticed you can kind of hear the overflow gurgling in the background. I'm going to have to address that next!

[Mike]

:D Took the pump apart, picked up some new bearings from Princess Auto for $3.89, put the thing back together, now it's GREAT!!! Still haven't tried it in the system, but the motor itself is pretty quiet. Thanks a lot everyone!!!:D

:thanks:

[Dman]

ya, MIke wins.
Actually so do I, as now I know a little bit more about my MAK4 too.
Cheers
Dman
:spin:

[Mike]

:confused:
Hmm... Okay, the pump is still kinda loud... Working well, though... I think I'm going to try to find some better bearings for it - not sure of the quality of the ones from Princess Auto, and I'm going to try upsizing the elbow, and mounting it on foam.... but it's still a LOT better!!!

[Mike]

Earlier I mentioned that I was thinking I got ripped off over the pump - I feel kinda bad about that statement now. Those of you who follow this forum will know that I purchased the pump from a member, and will know who that member is. I emailed the fellow I bought it from just before I managed to get it fixed, and informed him of the problem. He said he'd noticed a noise, but thought it was cavitation due to the way he had it set up. He was extremely helpful, and offered to try to find the receipt for it, and was willing to help me out in any way he could. I in no way feel that I was ripped off or taken advantage of, and I don't want this situation to reflect badly on any member of this forum. Hey - I got a perfectly good, almost new pump for less than half what it would have cost retail, and in the process learned a lot about it as well! I thank you all for your advice and help.:thanks:

Mike

[Dman]

Mike,
You're a classy guy
Bravo
Dman
:spin: