Not feeling the love from the zoas..

[Patwa]

man,....is it just me?…but are any of my fellow zoa freaks experiencing an apparent surge in zoa fungus outbreaks?? I’ve lost, like, 2 or 3 small colonies in the past few weeks….before that, literally nothing for the past year (well, maybe that one time I went to play a vball tourney and ignored my tank for the entire weekend – never again!!!!!)…..maybe I’m losing my ‘edge’ hahaha

….although I did frag off what I could, I did lose quite a bit….….it’s just disheartening…….the prob is that I buy and sell pieces very often...it’s the only way I can satiate my need for new colours and patterns LOL………Maybe I should slow down? (yeah right!)

Zach

[Mugster]

It's the exact opposite for me. My zoas are flourishing for a change. I hope you get everything under control and don't lose anymore colonies.






:hi1:

[NanoReefaholic]

It's karma, the SPS's are getting their revenge!!!

All kidding aside, I've also noticed a few people with problems.

[vaporize]

I think it really has to do with the recent shipments of zoos, they seem to be having higher portability of getting "white death" colonies.

Smell before buying them.

QT them ;-D Especially with such a large collection like yours.

If Polyplab can come up with a medication that kills white zoo fungus, they are going to be the best medicine in the hobby ;) (gotta motivate fellow canadian R&D)

[mordinad]

Have the vendors noticed any deaths?

Mine have been doing fine, I've lost about 30 heads of rics so far since the tank upgrade, but the zoas, man they growing too fast, but all the ugly ones (brown skirt, orange centre). I got some frags fron WTR, they are doing well.

I'd be pretty bummed if I lost colonies, and I've seen pics of your old zoa tank, that's some bad luck.

I'll post more pics of my small collection some time, I know we've had our differences but if you're interested in any, I'd be more than happy to swap and trade frags.

[Syndrome]

hey Zach, it could be caused by frequent disturbance due to fragging. Sorry to say this but "Stop dipping your hands in your tank!" If you need a fix you can come by and check out my collection, I need an expert on Zoas if I have anything worthy.:D

[doug]

You could try stopping the fungus from spreading and growing using a tetracycline or hydrogen peroxide dip.

[smp]

Sucks to hear Zach.
I'm convinced that this hobby is just one problem after the other. I hope one day I'll have a big mature tank that I can leave alone for a few years and just watch grow.

[Reef Mike]

Has anybody actually got fungus on an existing colony??? Like a piece that has been in the tank 2-3 months?

A lot of the fungus is from shipping stress and the way suppliers send zoas..

Just curious whether these are new purchases or old ones?

Mike

[vaporize]

The longest fungus infection in my tank lasted 2 months or so before it died off (with no more zoo)

[piscies75]

I had a bad outbreak over a year ago. took out the dying stuff, fine, until a few weeks ago. new slight outbreak, attacked same zoos but this time also my favourites close by. Half dead before recovering after move.
:woohoo:

[Aurel]

Recently lost half my zoos to fungus. Had been buying lots of frags recently but outbreak was on established and new colonies. New colonies were smaller/weaker so lost the most with those specimens.

Tried iodine dip, peroxide dip, formalin and malachite green dip, and finally furan 2 in QT. Seems to have worked but treatment losses as bad as fungus losses IMO.

[smp]

Hey Zach were your limaids affected?!
I've still got the one polyp hanging on, hopefully it sprouts some neighbours soon.
I didn't realize that this white fungus thing was such a big deal, but by the sounds of this thread everyone has had it at some point. I've lost some zoos here and there but never had fungus, hope I never do.
Good luck Zach.

[Reef Mike]

I find that tangs do wonders for the fungus, and linkias seem to feast on it as well..

high flow is also important.

Mike

[mr.wilson]

Colonial polyps are no different than any other form of life. Colonies grow, overcrowd, and eventually crash.

If you continue to add to your collection, they may eventually go the same route as the Roman Empire and the rats that they over-populate in those experiments (No offense Mike).

The allelopathy (toxic agents used by corals to compete for space) carried out by colonial polyps is far more significant than that of LPS or SPS. Frequent replacement of carbon and chemical media (Puragen, chemipure, zeolites, and poly filters) aggressive protein skimming, and the use of ozone will help, but you have to work with the tolerance of the community.

I'm not sure how big zoanthid, parazoanthid, and palythoa colonies get in the wild, but it's possible that we're pushing too hard in our closed systems. In the ocean, the toxic chemicals generated by them drift into the abyss, while it continues to accumulate in captive reefs.

Taking cuttings and handling them frequently, cues them to release protective toxins and causes general stress. With good water quality, open wounds heal quickly, but aggressive harvesting disrupts this balance.

A collection of colonial polyps that includes specimens from different oceans will also reflect greater mortality rates. Each coral is immune to certain pathogens. Once you start mixing up geographical distribution, you're forcing corals to evolve and adapt very quickly. Take a look at North & South Americas history to see the results of this practice. The ocean has very specific regions, where certain corals will thrive and others will perish. If they can't adapt to a different area of a local reef, we can't expect them to successfully cohabitate (As George Bush once said).

It would be wise to remove a mother colony to a culture tank while taking cuttings. Once it has completely healed in the presence of antibiotics and anti-fungal agents, it can be returned to the display.

Another issue that makes it seem like there are more cases of fungus out there is the sheer volume of zoanthids on the market. You weren't hearing much about it two years ago, because there wasn't nearly as many on the market. If there was a renewed interest in xenia, I'm sure we would be hearing all kinds of stories of xenia crashes.

Polyfilters, carbon, quarantine, reduced stress levels, and avoiding overpopulation will help solve your problem.

[Patwa]

sorry for the late reply, folks....I had a reallllly good weekend :drunk:


I think it really has to do with the recent shipments of zoos, they seem to be having higher portability of getting "white death" colonies.

Smell before buying them.


yeah man....totally...smell 'em before you buy 'em!!.....the main problem with mine is that they didn't really show any signs of fungus when i bought them....god knows i'm like a hawk when i buy zoas....i take a long time to make up my mind....you gotta look not just at the polyps, but also the rock it's on - it's my experience that fungus usually starts with some already dead or decaying matter on the rock itself (dead sponge, excess detritus, worms, etc)....but of course, that's not always the case.......

case in point....i'm holding nice zoa rock for Atomikk....it was fine at the store....and fien in my tank for the last few days....last night i see small seams of white fungus starting to appear around some of the polyps.....i dunno what to say....the rock seems fine, but then you have the fugus popping up.....%$!#%$!#%!


Have the vendors noticed any deaths?

Mine have been doing fine, I've lost about 30 heads of rics so far since the tank upgrade, but the zoas, man they growing too fast, but all the ugly ones (brown skirt, orange centre). I got some frags fron WTR, they are doing well.

I'd be pretty bummed if I lost colonies, and I've seen pics of your old zoa tank, that's some bad luck.

I'll post more pics of my small collection some time, I know we've had our differences but if you're interested in any, I'd be more than happy to swap and trade frags.

yeah man..for sure we can trade!......post pics and we'll take it from there!

but yeah....the vendors have definitely not escpaed this fungus issue....WTR had a few rocks and frags that were getting the fungus ...plus NAFB has a pile of zoa rock that crapped out on me and my friends 'cause of the white death....but you can't blame these guys....it's not their fault one bit....buyer beware, eh!?


hey Zach, it could be caused by frequent disturbance due to fragging. Sorry to say this but "Stop dipping your hands in your tank!" If you need a fix you can come by and check out my collection, I need an expert on Zoas if I have anything worthy.:D

hehehe...i'd love to check out your zoas....you've got some really nice ones, from what i remember from your photos

but yeah....i do frag a lot....but I don't really think it really has such a negative effect on my other zoas.....i've been fragging since i started collecting zoas, and I have not experienced anything like this......what has been happening over the past while is very interesting, albeit, a bit sad :(

the stock of zoas coming into Toronto these days seems more flaky....maybe the acclimation process right when they're plucked from the ocean is not as effective as it should be......(i'm looking at you Fiji, and Indonesia!!!!) ...unless you're getting uber-quality Walt Smith-type stuff, you gotta be careful!

(don't even get me started on Tongan zoas.....i really, really have no faith in them....)



You could try stopping the fungus from spreading and growing using a tetracycline or hydrogen peroxide dip.

of course........I use freshwater dips...and/or a hydrogen peroxide/RO water dip.....slowly increasing the ratio of peroxide.......the peroxide does stave off the white death somewhat, but it definitely ain't a cure.

I also don't have a hospital tank (girlfriend would kill me if got another tank! lol), so i'm weary of trying a multitude of medications....


Has anybody actually got fungus on an existing colony??? Like a piece that has been in the tank 2-3 months?


yeah...most of the problems i have been having lately are with new stock......conversely, the problem I had in the summer involved colonies I had for over 2 years......the white death don't discriminate! :(

and yeah, i agree 100%.....the suppliers prolly have a hand in this whole mess...they need to assess their stock before they ship out.....so many pieces come in looking rough....


Hey Zach were your limaids affected?!


no worries man, the raspberry limeades are doing swell!....still wide open and getting more yellow and pink every week ;) *knocks on wood*

Zach

[vaporize]

Just one thing that I remembered, Coralscaping was saying that white fungus has something to do with water nutrient level. I know that you do not change water very and not having active skimming, i wonder if that contributes to that too.

[Sea MunnKey]

I know that you do not change water very and not having active skimming, i wonder if that contributes to that too.

I've been trying out this "not too active skimming" test and lo behold...my Zoas are multiplying like crazy. I've got two colony of Acanthastrea that I'd picked up from NAFB (they looked like they were dying...) and wow...they're so inflated and their mouths are always open up and begging for food. The colours are slowly coming back...
ReefRoids, Phytoplankton and Cyclop-Eeze combos....target feed Mysis shrimps and Krill!!

[Patwa]

Just one thing that I remembered, Coralscaping was saying that white fungus has something to do with water nutrient level. I know that you do not change water very and not having active skimming, i wonder if that contributes to that too.

yeah fungus will thrive in situations where the water quality is not good....that's basically what happened to those established colonies I lost during the summer.....it was during a big tank breakdown and move...my water was dirty to begin with, the skimmer and phosban reactor was offline for a few days....and I was barely at home the whole weekend......i was asking or it, i guess :(

while it's true I don't really do any water changes ...i still do maintain a relatively high level of cleanliness in my tanks... i have a low bioload, i run good skimmers, i use phosphate removal media and carbon religiously.....i used RO+DI water and have good circulation....i also have LOTS of live-rock...you need lots of rock if you want to be as 'lazy' as me :D

Zach.

[smp]

I don't know, you can't put all the blame on the exporters. I know it's frowned upon to criticize our sponsors but I think that zoos and palys should all be open before they go on sale. I hate making the effort to drive all the way out to Sauga (because we don't all live there) on ship day only to find myself staring patiently at a bunch of closed up polyps.
Sure, I don't have to buy any of them, but if I don't, other people will buy the closed ones and nothing will be left by following day. So far I've had good luck but it would be much better to purchase colonies that you can see open. What's happening is that they ship, land, get stuck in the holding tanks for less than 24 hours (or so it seems) then straight into a bag and into our tanks, that's gotta be stressful.

[mr.wilson]

I don't know, you can't put all the blame on the exporters. I know it's frowned upon to criticize our sponsors but I think that zoos and palys should all be open before they go on sale. I hate making the effort to drive all the way out to Sauga (because we don't all live there) on ship day only to find myself staring patiently at a bunch of closed up polyps.
Sure, I don't have to buy any of them, but if I don't, other people will buy the closed ones and nothing will be left by following day. So far I've had good luck but it would be much better to purchase colonies that you can see open. What's happening is that they ship, land, get stuck in the holding tanks for less than 24 hours (or so it seems) then straight into a bag and into our tanks, that's gotta be stressful.

You're right, the acclimation process is better left to professionals. I hate seeing people buy corals like lottery tickets. The unfortunate alternative is building a remote holding facility where no one will bug the retailer to sell them pre-maturely. The consumer would be forced to pick up this extra cost.

Some stores close for a day or two to keep the persistent marauders away, but that's bad for business too. If anyone can come up with a universally workable system, I would be more than happy to help implement it.

It's frustrating for the retailers, as you upset both groups of customers, the people that want first pick of corals that should not be moved, as well as the ones that want to wait a week and buy when they can make an educated decision.

I work in a retail store, but I buy my stuff three or four days after it lands to get the healthiest stuff and a better price too.

[smp]

Stick all the new arrivals in a separate tank and put a big sign on that tank that says "Not for sale until $ThisDay at $ThisTime" and STICK to it, ie; don't let Zach grab all the good stuff ahead of time!

That way you can keep the store open to sell everything else, just not the new arrivals.

[mordinad]

I gave up on the new arrival stuff, had bad luck with it. Now I just wait for the 2nds and thirds, or if lucky the original buyer ends up fragging a couple weeks later. Most zoa's a pretty decent growers.

Man since reading this thread I've lost a couple small patches of my zoas, dropped LR on them, before usually bounced back, now whatever I hit is dying and a couple of it's neighbours, hopefully doesn't spread.


Stick all the new arrivals in a separate tank and put a big sign on that tank that says "Not for sale until $ThisDay at $ThisTime" and STICK to it, ie; don't let Zach grab all the good stuff ahead of time!

That way you can keep the store open to sell everything else, just not the new arrivals.

[mr.wilson]

Stick all the new arrivals in a separate tank and put a big sign on that tank that says "Not for sale until $ThisDay at $ThisTime" and STICK to it, ie; don't let Zach grab all the good stuff ahead of time!

That way you can keep the store open to sell everything else, just not the new arrivals.

Many stores have tried that unsuccessfully. Sensible people don't mind the wait, but always suspect pre-sale cherry picking. Impatient, impulse buyers, begrudge the waiting period and are even more suspiciuos of the integrity of the waiting period. I frequently see people storm out of stores on sale days (even after a fair two day waiting period) mumbling under their breath that they will never return.

Both scenarios alienate customers and impede with the stores ability to re-coup their investment. These orders are pre-paid weeks or months in advance so independent retailers needs to make that money back quickly, without closing the store or losing customers and friends.

Once the fish system is done at WTR (soon) there will be an inforced waiting period on new fish arrivals, no exceptions. Anyone with a problem with it, or excuse why they should be allowed to jump the queue, will receive a copy of DR. Phils' book.

[Patwa]

yeah...as amazing as it sounds, I also fully support keeping new stock under wraps until they're 'ready' for sale :)....i don't mind waiting, really!...but then there's this part of me that KNOWS there's some amazing colour zoa in there and that if i don't act quickly, some else will get it...hehehe.....what to do? what to do?

oh man......i think what Ryan did last time with the zoa and acro sale was pretty decent....he got them in, waited a bit, and then opened for the big sale.....very well done.......BUT knowing he had to close his store for so long doesn't really make me feel all that well....it's lost revenue for him and possibly higher prices for us, as a result......there's got to be a better way for both the retailer and the customer

then that brings us back to the stock itself....maybe it does start with the supplier??....if a retailer can find a supplier with consistently HIGH quality pieces, he can obviously turn it around and sell to the public with minimal interruption to the store's operating hours......he's got to have CONFIDENCE in what he's selling.... ....but if he uses half-assed/inexperienced suppliers, he will have to wait and wait some more until the corals acclimate and 'open-up'......that ain't good for business, just as Mr.Wilson noted.

that being said, I still do think half-assed suppliers are the main cause for the recent surge in the mortality rates of my zoa colonies......if they take better care of the stock right from the start, there would not be so much flack to deal with when they finally end up in your tank.....

Anyone ever read up on how Walt Smith operates his coral stations over in Fiji and Tonga??....i wish other suppliers would learn from him and adopt his practices....he's been doing it for years and knows very well how to properly care for pieces prior to export.....i'm always excited when I hear a WS shipment may be coming in, cuz I know they're relatively problem-free

Zach.

[jeff_k]

It almost sounds like there needs to be a middleman involved here that would hold corals until they were healthy, then the stores could buy them from him. I believe something like this is already done in the states where giant importers brings in corals, then ships them out to their customers (the storefronts).

I think this could fix a lot of problems - first the corals would have time to acclimatize, you'd get a better mix of corals (ie, they all wouldn't come from one supplier). Second, there'd be a more constant supply of corals, we wouldn't have to wait for stores to get their shipments from slow shippers (like Ryan and his late Paly shipment). And lastly, I'm sure that would give us a better price on corals since the middleman could make larger orders and get better deals on corals and shipping. Even with the middleman - I don't think it would make the price any worse. We might see an end to the $40 corals that we see at NAFB, but we'd end up with much better quality corals with better surivals.

I think that RR is trying to do something like this, but it's in it's infancy stages and I doubt that we've seen it's benefits yet.

I'm no expert in the industry, or business for that matter, but that makes sense to me.

[Sea MunnKey]

..... in the states where giant importers brings in corals, then ships them out to their customers (the storefronts).



But then again the Yankees have a way bigger and wider central marketplace for wholesalers and weatherwise in Los Angeles is way more forgiving than our cold and frigid Northern winter weather. These few factors play a very important role in holding, distribution and transportation of Marine livestocks.
Majority of the Canadian LFS' are mainly based in Ontario.....JMHO

[Steeltowndubber]

Good discussion so far....

I think that the retailers truely should have some type of holding system for new arrivals...

If they were to find a reliable shipper who could supply when promised the retailer could eventually adopt a system where there is coral in holding but still have coral on display for purchase... You could develop a constant turn-around of stock and eventually have a cycle where there is always new arrivals in holding and others on display... That way there is no sudden rush of first buyers and you are more confident as a retailer that the corals you are selling are healthier simply from the fact that they have essentially been in QT for a bit...

I'm no expert in the trade so i'm sure there are obvious holes in my thoughts... but it's just a thought...

[smp]

Mr. Wilson, i don't see how holding stock in a separate tank until a certain day would be any different than what happens now except that people could browse the store and see what will be for sale. I guess that gives people an unfair advantage when the hold is lifted, but I don't agree that customers would feel cheated by it, unless cherry picking WAS going on. Personally, I'm not down with the cherry picking that goes on with the current system so for this customer it seems better.
I'm not a business owner though, so I can't speak for them.

[mr.wilson]

I had a wholesale importing company for eight years, and I can assure you it's the best distribution system as far as quality, health, and final price (considering losses).

The problem is retailers are greedy and think they can handle huge orders in their overstocked, hobbyist-style systems. Many retail stores over-illuminate their corals, and aren't familiar with wholesale handling, disease control, and acclimation processes. This is fueled by naive final consumers who succumb to impulse buys and $40.00 deals. In the end, you get what you pay for.

I know many of you are patient and can follow a fair system of distribution and pricing. As a fair honest person, you may not be aware of just how petty and ridiculous some people get when they are expected to respect these same rules. As I mentioned before, honest customers are convinced that they are missing out due to pushy ones, and the pushy ones still think they aren't getting enough. I'm going to go ahead and order those books from Dr. Phil.

I really don't like the cherry picking that goes on in the industry. Walt Smith started out as one of these scavengers, scalping rare fish and corals. I don't know where you guys have been seeing good Walt Smith orders, but he's one of the worst. Walt Smith live rock sits for weeks at a time in a warehouse in LA, only to be shipped by truck, adding another two weeks out of water and climate control.

Coral quality declines due to the packing time of 36 - 48 hours, not the conditions in the place of origin. Summer and winter orders make it worse. Heat packs can't be used in the winter due to the long wait in tropical conditions. The best solution for coral health during the distribution process, is good water quality, prophylactic treatment, and subdued lighting. Unfortunately, the final consumer has little patience for any of these.

In my opinion, and mind you I have no say in the matter, any exceptional corals should be segregated by the retailer and priced accordingly (higher). The retailer will make the profit and be able to offer the average pieces at a lower cost. This way the scalpers will not be able to profit from them. Anyone who really wants rare or unique corals will have the opportunity to prove it with their debit card. Of course this won't be popular with many, but it is truly fair.

Auction is the method of choice in most industries such as horticulture, automotive, art, antiques, and furniture. The floral industry uses a "reverse clock" for bidding. The price starts high, and drops slowly until someone buys it. You never find out how much the competition would have paid.

One coral tank could have all of the rare & unique pieces, priced at $100.00 ea. on the first sale day (after a day or two of acclimating). The price would then drop 10% every day until it sold or was moved into the $40.00 - $60.00 tanks. There's no room in this kind of a system for cherry pickers and scalpers.

[ajx22]

:iagree:

Couldn't have said it better!!

[Patwa]

The problem is retailers are greedy and think they can handle huge orders in their overstocked, hobbyist-style systems. Many retail stores over-illuminate their corals, and aren't familiar with wholesale handling, disease control, and acclimation processes. This is fueled by naive final consumers who succumb to impulse buys and $40.00 deals. In the end, you get what you pay for.

the GTA is a huge market..there's no question about it.....i agree some retailers are just jumping the gun and not properly planning out the 'finer' details of their operation ......it takes a lot of effort and $$ to do well in this business...not only do you have to keep the livestock happy, but you also have to ensure your customers are happy!


I don't know where you guys have been seeing good Walt Smith orders, but he's one of the worst. Walt Smith live rock sits for weeks at a time in a warehouse in LA, only to be shipped by truck, adding another two weeks out of water and climate control.

i've had really good experiences with Walt Smith shipments....although i've only been present at a handful of them in the Toronto area in the past 3 years or so.....all the pieces i've looked at have been above average (ie. zoanthids and LPS)....in fact, RR's last Walt Smith shipment blew me away...the zoas were exceptional and in excellent health...i've got no complaints for WS.....as yet!

as for his live-rock, i've got no comment, as i've never bought any direct from a shipment...I figured if Walt was confident enough to name the rock after his daughter ("kaelyni") he'd at least *try* to keep the quality as high as possible! ....I guess not, eh?



Coral quality declines due to the packing time of 36 - 48 hours, not the conditions in the place of origin. Summer and winter orders make it worse. Heat packs can't be used in the winter due to the long wait in tropical conditions. The best solution for coral health during the distribution process, is good water quality, prophylactic treatment, and subdued lighting. Unfortunately, the final consumer has little patients for any of these.

i think the conditions at the place of origin do play a big role....freshly harvested corals can come in with a host of problems.....algae, hitchhikers, disease, etc......i guess what i'm trying to say is that distributors should maintain a strict 'quaratine'-type of environment right at the source......Walt Smith does this (as per a transcript i read a long time ago of a speech he made at some reef expo') ..there is a significant amount of die-off on rocks pulled from the ocean...you have to mitigate this with time, good water, skimming, flow, etc....you can't just toss them into a box and ship out - even though that is what is happening these days.....Tongan shipment are the worst for this....

but yeah....transport/packing does take a HUGE toll on livestock...i can't agree with you more on that one!

Zach

[smp]

For those interested in a good read about aqua culture (and wild harvest), especially in indo/bali, see the following thread for some first hand accounts:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=916488

I would welcome anymore reading along those lines if you have it.

[vaporize]

Once the fish system is done at WTR (soon) there will be an inforced waiting period on new fish arrivals, no exceptions. Anyone with a problem with it, or excuse why they should be allowed to jump the queue, will receive a copy of DR. Phils' book.

hahhaha, if you really say so Shawn, I will hold this to your words that no dealers or friends can have pre-pick on the fish until waiting period is over

:P