Do you use a canister filter?

[pbutkovich]

Ok. I’ve been running a 54 g corner tank for about a year and a half with the following equipment: crushed coral bed, 100lbs of live rock, Red Sea Prism Filter, Eheim wet dry 2229 filter (this only contains substrate), a couple of powerheads, heater, lights etc… My water levels are always fine. I do 15% water changes every two to three weeks. Every article I read on RC suggests that a sump is the only way to go. Canister filters are bad is the opinion. What are some of your thoughts? Am I nuts to stick with the wet dry canister? If you feel that a sump is the best option, what is the easiest way to create a sump in an existing tank? The odd shape of the corner tank does not give me too much room under the stand with light ballasts etc. Sorry for the long post.
Paul

[afss]

Canisters, IMO , are just a PITA to run all the time. They are nice to have around for running carbon etc on ocasion. Depending on how your system is set up you may be fine to stop using the canister. It probably isn't hurting anything, other than the time it takes to maintain it, but it probablyt isn't helping either.

Scott

I love having a sump, but depending on what size area you have it may not be worth while for you.

What working space do you have?

[pbutkovich]

Scott,
I don't have much room at all. I would be lucky to fit something with a 10 g sized base under there. Do you think it would be safe to stop running it without putting a sump under?
Paul

[afss]

How much media is in the canister?
What is the tank, Reef or Fish with live rock?
How long has it been set up?
How many fish and how big?
How much food and How often?

More than likely the live rock will be more than able to handle your bio load. If you were able to i would also suggest switching to a DSB if you are doing reef, but thats just my personal opinion.

A 10 gallon sump should be fine for a tank of your size. Bigger is better, but 10 gallons should work

Scott

[Daniel Schubert]

Paul

If you are handy and have a table saw you could alway's make a custom sump to match your tank shape. Thus maximizing in sump area. Home Depot sells 1/4 " Acrylic

[pbutkovich]

Scott,
The tank has been up and running for 1 ½ years
The entire canister is filled with substrate (all 3 layers)
It is a Reef tank
I have 1 Coral Beauty
2 Clown Fish
1 Fairy Wrasse
2 Serpent Stars
1 Brittle Star
1 Emerald Crab
Assorted blue and red legged crabs
Astera Snails
I feed once nightly a mix of Mysis and Brine (about a cube to cube and a half)

Daniel,
Would I just Silicone the pieces together? What type of bracing would you use? I am fairly handy and have built several canopies but am nervous about water and electricity.

[johnfish]

IMO canisters are a major PIA. I had one on my fresh water tank and it would clog up every two weeks and have to be torn down and cleaned. Then to get it started again, I would have to suck aquarium water for several minutes until the syphon started again.

For a marine tank they are just nitrate factories and will prevent you from getting your nitates down really low. Any kind of mechanical straining is a bad idea on a marine tank. You might be able to get away with it on a Fish Only tank, but it isn't the best way.

Marine just ain't the same as fresh. You just can't transfer the principles from fresh to salt, it's a whole different game.

[pbutkovich]

I've heard the Nitrate factory thing many times, but as I mentioned at the start, I never seem to have any noticable Nitrates when I test. As far as the syphon thing, that canister must have been crappy. My Eheim Professional 2229 is the easiest thing to use. Always keeps it's syphon, two little clips to release the hose assembly etc. Now my old 403 that was on my fresh water sting ray tank, that was a pain. What is my advantage to going to a sump?

Scott,
You mentioned a DSB. This is an established tank. How hard would it be to switch? What I mean is, how long would I have to place all of my corals, fish, etc. in a rubbermaid bin or something similar before I can put it back in. Or would you just try to remove most of the crushed coral and add the sand to the tank with the animals etc. still in there? so many questions!!
Paul

[afss]

IMO the nitrate factory stuff is a bit of BS. Yes, sure it does create nitrates, of course it does. So does your rock, your sand, your crushed coral etc etc etc. What ever food you put into the tank will eventually be turned into nitrates. So yes your filter does create nitrates, does it matter? not really, cause if your filter didn't convert it your rock or something else would.

I also had no problem with getting it started again, only problems with getting it to seal properly.

As far as the DSB goes. You can add them to existing tanks. Some take the plunge and do the whole thing at once, others take their time and do it a bit at a time. I myself would use southdown or equivalent type sand, but this will more than likely cause a snow storm look in your tank for atleast a few days. I have moved my tank and DSB etc a few times now and all i do is set the tank up with the sand and as many rocks as i can see to place the first day, the next day the rest of the rocks and corals go in.

If you are seriously considering a DSB do some reasearch, there is an excelent thread on RC about all you ever wanted to know about southdown.

If you decide to use SD or similar I would suggest that you try to seed the sand before introducing it to your tank. This will help cut down on the snow storm period by helping to coat the particles with bacteria etc. This helps the particles to settle out. You could so this by placing the sand in a rubermaid container with SW and a small power head, a heater, and a few scoops of stuff from your existing substrate. I would think that if you did this for a few weeks it would considerably help with the milk, snow storm look.

When i move my tank now it only takes a few days to clear, when i first put it in with no seeding it took over a week.

Scott

[pbutkovich]

Thanks Scott. I've spent many nights over the last couple of months on all the BB just raeding. you know what? There are so many opinions about different things it drives you nuts! I am still not convinced about the sump, but am fairly convinced that a DSB is the way to go. I just never thought about doing it with the tank I have now. I always thought that it would be too hard now and that I should just wait until I haved saved up for the larger tank. (this may be 2 years away though) I am not sure what you mean by "some take the plunge and do it all at once." Would they keep all their rock and coral in the tank or take it out as they made the complete switch? I think that if I remove all of the crushed coral that will make it fairly cloudy so I may as well add all the sand at the same time. Just not sure if I should remove everything first. If I remove everything, how long should I leave it out. Will adding the sand cause a new cycle in the tank? Would you leave the rocks and corals in the dark while out or jerry rig the lights over the bins?
Paul

[afss]

If you seed the sand first then you shouldn't get much of a cycle but still will get a bit of one.

Some people take the plunge and take the corals and rock etc out and put the sand in all at once, then some add the stuff back right away, otheres wait varying amounts of time to put the stick back in.
Others remove a portion of the substrate at a time and replace it slowly over a period of time.

I'm not sure what method is better for the tank, but i would think the all at once would be MUCH easier and then put the stock back in over a few days, after first seeding the sand for a few weeks before the transfer.

Scott

[pbutkovich]

Thanks again for your time Scott. Last question for awhile. Would you put lights over the removed livestock or leave them dark for the couple of days they are out?
Paul

[afss]

If it was me i would try to do the move in just over 24 hours(so i wouldn't bother with the lights).... start saturday morning and yank everything, put the sand in, put the rocks back in as best you can. The next morning i would rearange the final rock work and put the coral back in. Maybe re arange the coral a few days later.

[pbutkovich]

Thanks for all your help Scott!

[johnfish]

Hi Paul,

I suspect the constant water changes are serving as a nitrate export path.

If you change 15% every two weeks, that is 86% changed every three months, 93% every four months.

You can get away with a lot if you are using new water every few months.

One of the major disadvantages of this, other than cost, is the import of trace elements such as heavy metals from the salt mix which accumulate in the substrate and rock.

I have no filters whatsoever, but have a good cc skimmer, large refugium/sump full of macro algae, Deep Sand Beds in both tanks and live rock in both tanks. Nitrate export is accomplished by harvesting the macro algae.

I never change any water ever. Nitrates are un-detectable.

Cheers:)
John

[pbutkovich]

Hi John,
I have thought alot about the sump/refugium many times but have so little room under my CORNER 54g. I just dont have the room under there for a large large refugium/sump such as you have. If I get rid of the canister from under the tank I could put maybe a 10g under there. I have thought about what Daniel said about making one to fit. The problem is the door opening is not very big. You mentioned something about heavy metals from the salt mix? I had not heard this. How long does this take to become a problem? How do you get rid of them? I could easily cut back on water changes because the nitrate levels are NEVER high. I just thought the fresher the water the better. I guess I had better slow down to every four weeks and see if there are any changes in levels. I'll see how long I can go without any minor increases.
Paul

[johnfish]

Hi Paul,

I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve. It sounds like your system is running nicely the way it is. Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. What would you like to see improved?

Here is a recent article by Ron Shimeck on the toxicity problem of salt mixes:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/index.htm

It takes a couple of years to build up and then the tank crashes. It's also known as Old Tank Syndrome. Using bioassay grade salt mix is supposed to help (see article). Also, running the newly mixed saltwater through a Polyfilter pad for a while is supposed to help.

There is no way to get rid of the metals once they are there, except by replacing the live rock and sand. There is no way to export them either; skimmers or macroalgae won't remove them. They best way is to prevent them from getting into your system in the first place.

The problem is that the chemicals used in making salt mixes are reasearch grade and so contain impurities. The best way would be to make salt mix from analytical grade chemicals. The cost would be astronomical, however.

Cheers:)
John

[pbutkovich]

HI John,
Thanks for the article. Interesting read. Do you use a bioassay salt mix? As to your question "What would you like to see improved?", I'm really not sure. I have heard how bad the canisters are and just want what is best for the tank. If it truely is the biweekly water changes keeping the levels low, and those changes are hurting the tank, I had better try something new. I definately don't want to through out over 100 pounds of live rock at the end of two years and buy "Fresh" rock. This hobby would get very expensive then! If you don't change water very often, do you still get the "crash" after a few years?
Thanks for your input John
Paul

[johnfish]

Hi Paul,

Well, if that wet/dry canister is working for you, then it isn't 'bad'. It sounds like you have a strong nitrogen cycle working in your system. The only thing missing is a route for exporting the final product - nitrate. Fish can tolerate a lot of nitrate whereas coral and invertebrates can't. There are several ways to export nitrate.

Periodic water changes is one. Another is plants which fix the nitrate in their structure and as they grow you remove some of the biomass. A third way is a Deep Sand Bed (DSB) which uses anerobic bacteria to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas.

I would bet the water changes are accomplishing it on your system. The only concern may be eventual toxic build-up. Maybe switch to Crysal Seas (Marinemix) Bioassay salt mix and run a small filter with a Polyfilter pad on the mixing tub for 24 hrs. I haven't needed any salt mix because I don't do water changes. When I do, I am going to track down some of this stuff. According to Dr. Ron's results it is almost devoid of nasty trace elements.

You could try backing off on the water changes while monitoring nitrate levels. Nitrates should build up fairly slowly I would think. Might want to keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite too. Be careful. A sudden crash might happen if some critical point is exceeded.

A DSB might allow you to back off on the water changes once it becomes established. If your crushed coral isn't too deep, you could try adding shallow layers of oolithic aragonite sand slowly. Like add about 1/4" to 1/2", leave it for a week to let the organisms move up and colonise it, then another 1/2", etc. until you have three or four inches of sand on top of the crushed coral. The crushed coral underneath will act like a plenum space in a Jaubert system.

I have done this successfully. The trick is to take it slow so you don't smother the life in the layer below. A thin layer will still allow oxygen to reach the micro life and it will just migrate upward.


Cheers:)
John

[mibaro]

I'll use a canister filter just as a pump...with little media. Maybe carbon, or pieces of live rock that broke off. I'll also use a prefilter on the intake if necessary to reduce the amount of times to tear it down.
Currently, I use it to pump water nback from a sump to the tank...just gives me more water movement.

Michael