Hey Guys! want to start a small reef :)

[Jay]

Hey Folks,


It's been a while since I last visited "howdy" :)


Back last year I was wanting to start a large salt water tank but decided to hold off.

Well, now I want to start off with a smaller tank.

The tank in question will be a 35Gal tank. My question is, CAN I use a DSB with a tank this small? and for filtration, will a Fluval 404 and a 304 powerhead be enough?

If I am ok for a DSB, how deep should I make it?

I will start the tank off in it's cycle with a piece of so of live rock and a molly or two to help with the cycle and try to get some live sand from my one pet store.

I will for the most part be keeping soft corals, nothing to hard "my first tank"

Any help/advice would be greatly apperciated!

Thanks guys ;)
Jay

[afss]

I think that the standard is the sand bed should be atleast 4 inches in order to be effective with 6 being optimal. You should be fine with the fluval and powerhead, but I would run the fluval with no media or i would use a sump instead (10 or 15 gallon size).

For the cycle i would suggest not using any live fish. I would suggest putting in as much live rock as you think you are going to use and using a piece of shrimp from the grocery store to do the cycle.

Scott

[Jay]

Thanks Afss :)

So I guess I am ok to do a dsb with a tank this size.

I was also thinking on just doing a 20 Gal tank as I already have one set up "past angelfish grow out tank"

I've seen little reef's as small as 10 Gallons.

Would I be pushing it with a 20G? It is the regular sized 20, not the tall version.

Also... I CAN NOT find south down sand here.. are there any other sand's I could get away with?

If all else fails, can I use crushed coral? would this work for a dsb? I read before that it will raise the PH but it will also melt away if the ph isn't right on or something :confused:

Looking forward to hearing from you guy's.

I want to get this project in the making soon.

Thanks
Jay

[afss]

You can't get southdown in canada. I hope to get some soon when i get some moeny at the same time as i have time to go i will be making a trip to get some in the us.
You can use most sands, SD just has a good match for grain sizes. You can not get a DSB effect by using crushed coral. The idea of a DSB is to create an anerobic area for anerobic bacteria to live. The fact that CC leave such gaps between its grains does not allow for a propper anerobic area to occur.

You can do a nano, but the bigger the better. More water + more stabilty in water parameters. This is one of the big reasons i suggest using a sump.. added water volume.

Remember.. cycle with a piece of DEAD shrimp.

Scott

[Jay]

Thanks for the reply!

I went out today and bought a 33 Gallon which I think is not to small but not to big "can never be big enough :)"

I was talking with my old boss and he said that there are mixed opinions on DSB's so I really don't know what I want to do, I think I am just going to stick a couple inches of crush coral on the floor of the tank and whoo hoo it. Every tank I see at pet stores and people's homes all have crush coral so I figure it can't be a bad thing right?

I plan on filling up the tank tomorrow and getting 35 pounds of live rock. Can I still put a shrimp in there with the rock? will it hurt it? and can I use a shrimp from a shrimp ring?

Thanks for any help!
Jay

[afss]

There is are many mixed opinions out there concerning DSB. Most of the old school say they are no good. Most new think they are great. IMO DSB is by far the way to go, Its up to you, but the last thing that i would do is follow the advise of most petstores. There are some good ones out there, but the majority aren't great when it comes to advise.

A shrimp from a shrimp ring should be fine

[Jay]

Cool thanks!

Steve "my old boss" which now has his own marine retail setup has been into the scene for 16 years, pretty knowledgeable!

I don't know, I guess if I wanted to do a DSB down the road I could, couldn't I?

[afss]

you could. Its just a PITA to do it later. IMO it and the refugium are the keys to success on my setup. Your tank will probably run just fine with a cc base, but I think it would run better with a properly matured DSB.

I would suggest you see what other reefers have to offer. Maybe even do a search on this board and on reef central on deep sand beds. I think that you will find that they are widely accepted as being a very benificial addition to a tank.

Scott

[Jay]

Hey Scott.

I am sure they are and I would like to have one but #1 I can't get Southdown here and #2 it is a 33Gal, I would like to have as much water in the tank as possible you know.

And yeah, It might be a pain in the butt to do it later, but it can be done correct.

I am getting some crushed coral for free, so I am not complaining :D better then paying $40 bucks for a bag of so called "live sand" ;)

I'll let you guys all know how I make out and some pictures in the future!

One question, what is the prefered gravity you guy's like, I know it depends on what kind of fish you intend to stick in the tank. But what would be an "ideal" gravity.

Thanks again Scott.
Jay

[Jay]

OK you got me convinced with a DSB :)

Ok Guys here's the scoop.

I can't find Southdown sand here anywhere, I called home depot in PH and they don't have it.

My question is this. CAN I use regular playbox sand if I were to wash it really good, I know the grain size might be slightly larger then that of Southdown, but WOULD this be adaquate? Meaning, better then no DSB at all.

Really enjoy hearing from you guys AND Gals with your opinions and if you have used normal playbox sand with good results, could you tell me what the make of it is and where you purchased it from.

Thanks and hope to hear from you folks.

Regards
Jay

[Jay]

Folks, I am really confused now with the DSB.

I was reading on RC that a DSB would be usless in my 33 Gal.

Meaning that if I were to put a 4 inch deep sand bed that me having live rock on the suface would make the DSB not work.

I also read that you can lift the rock off of the surface a 1/2 inch as well.

Please help me out here :) I have my water mixed and am continuing to warm the water. I would like to add some playsand to the tank and some live rock tomorrow to get me on my way for my tank cycle.

Help would be an greatly appericated!!.
Thank you
Jay

[afss]

you can use silica based playsand, but it is probably better to use calcium based. you should be able to get calcium base aragonite sand at your LFS. You will pay near the same price as cc, but you should be able to get sand too.

I know you are in a hurry to get this setup, but the first thing you have to learn in this hobby is to take your time and don't rush things.


Scott

[GoSUV]

For the specific gravity, you should keep it at 1.022 to 1.023 range, if you are going fish only. If you keep any invertebrates, including shrimps, crabs, snails, corals, sea stars etc., it is better to have full-strength salinity, with the SG being at 1.025 to 1.026. IMHO, in order for the little critters in your live rock to survive and multiply, I would keep full strength salinity right from the beginning.

Some petstores keep their SG below normal, such as in the 1.017 range, to keep salt mix cost down and to prevent parasites outbreaks. Invertebrates can't live in low SG so the chance of parasites is lower. But I wouldn't try that in any tank with corals.

Fish from the Red Sea are accustomed to higher SG, being in the 1.027 to 1.030 range.

Make sure where the fish is from, and know the SG of your petstore, and acclimate properly.

One last point, keep your SG in the tank STABLE. It is not which value is best, but preventing wild swings in SG is important. Fish and invertebrates will adapt (within reason) to your set SG. Add topup freshwater to compensate for evaporation. Evaporated water is pure water, and leaving the salts behind. So your tank will gradually become more saline if you don't intervene.

Good luck, and take things slowly.

[Jay]

Thanks for the reply's guys :)

I am going to go to the hardware store today and see about some playsand. I called my LFS and they don't have the sand you were mentioning.

How do I know that the playsand is Silica based? are all brownish tanned coloured playsand's silica based?

I am defently not in no rush, I just want to have the dsb and live rock in place to start my tank cycle and go from there :)

After my tank has completed it's cycle, how long do I have to wait to stick say, some polyps and mushrooms in there?

Looking forward to hearing about the sand.

Thanks guys, your a big help
Jay

[Jay]

Guys.

Isn't the white sand blasting sand silica based? that would look real good in a saltwater tank if it is ok to use!!??

[Jay]

Well I finally tracked down some nice white silica sand and made a 3- 3 1/2 inch deep sand bed, going out in a little bit to get me some live rock, ill keep you guys updated.
Thanks
Jay

[Mitchell]

Silica sand will probably give you problems with Diaton Algae.

[Jay]

Yes,

I have heard mixed opinions and some people swear by it and some don't agree with it. So I went ahead and went with the Silica as I have had people tell me they had their tank set up for 10 years using it and had no problems.

Anway's I have a 3 1/2-4 inch DSB and I got 20lb's of real nice live rock with lots of life on it and also got a white star polyp which is just growing thrown in "buddy/old boss of mine"

The cloud in the water is quickly clearing up, I also got a little bit of his CC from his liverock tank to seed my DSB, but I don't know how live it was. I did see a couple little shrimp that were swiming when I first stuck it in, but I don't know if they will survive the cycle "I hope so"


Is there anyone around me that would be so kind to send me some of their live sand? I will remburst you for your shipping costs!!!

Looking forward to hearing from you folks
Jay

[Jay]

Just wanted to say everything is going great, on day 6 of my cycle and I am starting to get what I believe would be red slime algae starting on some of my live rock. Question, how soon can I add some hermits and snails?

Also have a bunch of feather dusters poping out :) so exciting I think!

:dance:

P.S. does snails and hermits eat red algae?
Thanks
Jay

[Chrismo]

You have test kits?
Test for ammonia and nitrites

When your nitrites get to zero then you can add stuff. That's when the most dangerous part of your cycle is. It can take 3 weeks to get to that point, but with well cured live rock and (seeded) live sand in there, it can happen in a week. Really you should test.

Call me a heartless bastard, but if you put in a single little hermit crab and it dies– It will help cycle your tank, and you'll have something to watch.

In the begginning months your tank will want to go through some algae stages. Dont sweat it too much. A powerhead making nice current along the rocks or sand will help keep algae away too. If yer buying, get a maxiJet not those Hagen ones. Maxi's are quieter and have better suction cups and clip-ons.

Chris

[Jay]

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the heads up bud.

Yes, the tank is getting the diatom algae "I think that's what it is" it is a brownish algae that is covering the bottom of my tank. I just bought a 5 stage RO unit and have a Prizm skimmer on the way.
I did an ammonia test last night and there was some. I will perform another test in a little while and see where I am sitting.
Thanks bud.
Jay

[afss]

some diatom algae has been the norm in a cycle when i have set up my tanks. Its only a porblem if it becomes an ongoing thing. I had one tank where it came and went for months bevore finally going away. I still get a small patch of it occasionally (3 or 4 inches sq).
Scott

[Jay]

Hey guys,

I am on day 7 of my cycle and guess what.
Amm 0
Nitrite 0.1mg/L "lowest reading"
Does this mean I can add some snails and crabs ? :)

Let me know what you guys think
Jay

[Chrismo]

Go ahead. Dont buy 1 per gallon or anything yet. There's not much detrius etc for them to eat yet. get a good mix of different kinds, each kind will have it's own habits. Nassarus Snails stay in the sand, Turbo's clean the glass, hermits the rocks etc.

[Jay]

That's good news to hear!

I will just get one or two for the time being to see how they do.

I'll keep yea's posted WHOO
Jay

[afss]

I would stay away from snails for now. They can be very sensative to swings in water quality.
Scott

[Jay]

Yes, I thought that myself so I just got 3 blue legged hermits and boy are they going to work on the algae!

You would never believe what I found on one of my live rocks, it appears to be a baby star fish!!!

[afss]

yep.. live rock certainly can come with loads of life. how big is it? If its btw 1-3 cm then that is likely the size it will stay.
Scott

[Jay]

Yea,

I'd say 2cm Scott. Why would it only stay this big?
Jay