water saving with permeate pump

[LUIGI]

HI bryan!
I have a question on this pump
do you believe in them?
couse I have a few question to ask
thanks

[Ryan Landry]

They work GREAT!!

We have one @ the store (brand new) if you want to take a look!

What questions did you have Luigi?


Cheers,
*~AJ~*

[H20_Science]

You have our complete attention Luigi!


Do I believe in them? Absolutely!

They can increase the performance of any system
amazingly. They increase rejection and output.

Bryan

[LUIGI]

thanks for the attention Guys!

well they are supposed to save up to 80% of the tap water(depending on the quality of the water)
I borrowed one off a fellow reefer who left the hobby I HAVENT PAID IT YET
he ask me to give it a try.....

I have a 14 gallons R/O holding tank that its pressurized at 7 PSI (if i'm not wrong)
so I did some testing...........

I have two excactly containers 6 gals each..
I connected the tubing as the Manual explain..
and the Good water tubing,to the holding tank.. the waste water was collected in one of the containers..
the tap water pressure was 81 PSI (pressure gauge filled with glicerine)
when the container with the waste water was almost full -6 gallons-
I stopped the flow with shut off valve.............
then I emptied the water from the holding tank to the other container- 6 gals-
and I realized that the container was almost half not full..
so I had 3 gallons of pure water
and 6 gallons of waste water ....

the rapport normally is 1:3 or 1/3 ...1 is the good water and 3 is the waste water
in my case I had 1:2 or 1/2.........
still..... noot baad ... just a little saving..
BUT how can I increase the saving to say at least 1:1? or 1/1?
the company of this pump says that you can save 80% of the water?

all the time that I did the testing the pressure was costant ..not washing machines or people went to the bathroom...
the pressure was 81 PSI steady..
I see this pump as a big selling product ...I dont want to discourage nobody .....
but I want incourage everybody ...........especially if we save alot... of water.
thanks guys....
.

[Chrismo]

Luigi,
Did it make the water much faster? Like if it normally took a hour to fill the jug, did it take a half hour????

Chris

[vaporize]

so basically this pump can increase the PSI and allow allow a waste water to have higher TDS, thus pushing more water through the membrane by leveraging the high PSI?

[LUIGI]

Luigi,
Did it make the water much faster? Like if it normally took a hour to fill the jug, did it take a half hour????

Chris
HI Chris!
this is a particular that I totally skipped ....really didnt pay attention..

the pump did start clicking faster when I connected it to the R/O tank...
this is becouse it uses the pressure of tap water to push the little turbine inside the pump

vaporize so basically this pump can increase the PSI and allow allow a waste water to have higher TDS, thus pushing more water through the membrane by leveraging the high PSI?
thats right its the turbine inside that compress the water through the membrane
...at least this is the way that I can tink of....I could be wrong......
The TDS meter reading WAS ALWAYS 0 all the time that I used the pump ........
and again I did see the difference .....1:2 compared to 1:3 its not a big saving but... :but: I want to get at least 1:1 and then there would be a saving .........and if I can get the 80% like the company states.......its another thing... :bsmile:

[H20_Science]

You guys dont need me Youve got it all figured out!


Bryan :)

[LUIGI]

Bryan!
you are the master in this sector.........
even if figure it out..
do you have any idea how can increase the water output??
thanks

[H20_Science]

what do you think might happen if you added a booster pump?....;)


Bryan

[LUIGI]

if you are sure that it will give me that 80%.....even the 70%....of water saving..
I will buy one right now..
I had a pressure of 80 PSI all the time
another thing is that the permeate pump run at a MAX 100 PSI (low 66 max 100)
so a big buster pump its not compatible.........
but if this 20 PSI make alot of difference its another story..

[H20_Science]

another thing you could do is to increase the amount of flow restriction on the waste line by adding a valve after the permeate pump and decreasing theoutput a bit. Using a booster pump and adding the 20 psi would blow your mind. I will give you a little tip though...its OK to go over the hundred a little/

Your system will be at peak!

Bryan

[H20_Science]

oh one more thing before I say to go over the hundred..What system do you have


Bryan

[notclear]

the pump did start clicking faster when I connected it to the R/O tank...


Did the clicking make a lot of noise as I remember a thread saying that the clicking made the guy couldn't sleep at night !

[LUIGI]

oh one more thing before I say to go over the hundred..What system do you have


Bryan
its an 100 gpd the new membrane its a dowTFC (if i'm not mistaken)
bought from AJ.. this past winter

notclear
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUIGI

the pump did start clicking faster when I connected it to the R/O tank...


Did the clicking make a lot of noise as I remember a thread saying that the clicking made the guy couldn't sleep at night !
1 Hour Ago 09:24 PM
well if you have in the bed room it will sound a bit louder than a wall clock pendulum..
mine is in the loundryroom

[H20_Science]

Ok I would add a booster pump. This and the permeate pump will create

"The perfect system"

Bryan

[kirei]

Luigi,

The Dow 100GPD membranes are nano membranes with 90% rejection rate operating a PSI of 50, you may get better waste water savings going with a 75 GPD 98% rejection rate membrane with the permeate pump?

[LUIGI]

Luigi,

The Dow 100GPD membranes are nano membranes with 90% rejection rate operating a PSI of 50, you may get better waste water savings going with a 75 GPD 98% rejection rate membrane with the permeate pump?

HI kirei
you are saiyng to go down to a 75 GPD?
to get more good water? :bsad:

[kirei]

No in fact I may be completely wrong... I am not sure how a higher rejection rate plays out in terms of waste water efficiency... Basically your membrane will reduce the TDS or incoming water by 90% where a 75GPD will reduce it by 98%, but now that I think about it, that means more rejected water, not less... just cleaner water after the membrane. So ignore that comment, sorry.

I am not sure if a booster pump is necessary, your membrane is supposed to be 100GPD and 90% Rejection at 50PSI according the the DOW specifications. Other nano membrane do need higher PSI though, but I believe that the DOW membranes are designed to run at around 50PSI. I also am considering a permeate pump to deal with some TDS creep issues. IF you feel so bad about wastewater you could collect it and use it to water plants. Or think about the fact that each time you flush the toilet it is 1.6 Gallons down the drain. I agree with you about water conservation. But there are easier and cheaper ways to conserve water... I have been thinking about how to conserve water... I was going to use the waste water to set up a hydroponics system... that would be overachieving... maybe you should do that, you like rediculously large projects.

It would be simple.. waste water to bucket with an auto shut off that diverts waste water down the drain when full. Then pump in bucket recirculates water through trays with perlite mixture and plants. Plants use water and increase evaporation (especially in the summer)... so get some metal halides, and start a year round lettuce grow op!

[Ryan Landry]

The Dow Filmtec 75GPD membrane when tuned for 100GPD production - produce a better rejection rate then the Dow Filtec 100GPD membrane.

Bryan can better explain this... :)

[Aquadude]

He already has here: LINK (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=15365&page=3&pp=15&highlight=rejection)

[H20_Science]

I dont follow the specs of the Manufacturer to the T and there are a few reasons for this. One of them is that they are based on municipal pressures and this is an area that can be improved on through a booster pump. secondly the membrane does in fact produce more water at a higher rejection rate when exposed to higher pressure. Based on the design of the membrane the membrane is able to perform better under higher pressures. The reaon a membrane will throw away too much water to begin with is because it will push as much water as possible through the layers of the element given the pressure it is provided. The rest of the water is thrown to the concentrate side. Now because water is going to take the path of leist resistance, the lower the pressure the more that will go to concentrate. Two things that I suggest when optimizing an RO system is as follows.

Number one 60 psi is a great running pressure..I run mine at 80 psi.
Secondly the concentrate output can be adjusted to the correct waste ratio or less if you are willing to cut a little life off the membrane. Adding a needle valve to the drain line to replace the flow restrictor is a great start.
This way you can manually tune the waste to product ratio to where you want it. This if dropped below the 3 to 1 ratio can cut down the membrane life though I have had one running 3 years under these conditions that is still rejecting at an average 98% plus. If using this method I would suggest an electric flush kit to keep the membrane clean.

Bryan

[LUIGI]

thanks for all prontness Bryan!

you are a great help for the comunity

[H20_Science]

Thank you very much Luigi that is a very cool thing to say...I try :)


Bryan

[Sydney]

I think it was mine that was clicking so loud I couldn't sleep at night. It was a little bit of an exageration. I had it in the basement and I could hear it in the bedroom.... Anyways, I had a faulty pump. 2 months after I installed it, it failed. The replacement one is much quieter.
BTW are there any issues with running the permeate pump with a booster pump? I am kind of afraid that the surging of the permeate pump would be hard on the booster.
Another question. I thought I had heard that the permeate pump could take the place of the auto shut off...any truth?
Chris