Low calcium levels

[jdair101]

Hi!!!
Being new to this hobby every time something new happens its time to read more and/or ask others.
So here it goes
When reading about different levels in the tank two things are bothering me. "CALCIUM+ALKALINITY " Every thing I read says calcuim should be in the area of 400-440. Well, using a Salifert test I can't get mine above 260. The fact that I only have a few calcium dependent things in my tank, (no hard corals) and I keep adding Tropic Marin Bio-calcuim this bothers me. As for alkalinity my Hagen test kit reads in mg/L not Kh and it is at 210 mg/L. One thing that I read is that doing regular water changes (I do 5% per week with Ro-Di)will help keep calcuim higher. My PH is allways in the area of 8.1 to 8.3. I don't use Kalkwaser for top up or at any time, but do use CaribSea agraMight as recomended by a LFS. Also have found when reading that softies don't need calcium(or do thay not use it up as fast??) As per the Hagen test for alk it says that it is high and to consult aquarium specialist.
So I think my question is do I need to worry about this, and if so any help would be great

Thanks for now

[afss]

The first thing i would do is to make up a bucket of replacement water. Get it to the right salinity and then test this water. Most mixes should contain a calcium level btw 400-450. If your test kit is good then it should read 400-450. If not then i would suspect that the test kit is shot.

After the test kit is verified

I am not sure on the chemistry of this aside from knowing that the 2 are related. I think you are going to need to add some buffer... but i would wait for someone else to confirm that.

I do know that softies do use calcium to build their form of support "skeleton". I believe the supports that they form using the calciunm are known as spicuals. It is true that they don't use calcium at the same rate as lps or sps, but they do use it.

hope that helped some.

Scott

[jdair101]

Thanks afss.
I ran out of salt mix this morning so I'll have to get some tomorrow to do the test you suggest. Seeing as I need more salt and I currently use Tropic Marine, do you have any other sugestions as to which brand to use. And if so is it safe to switch.

[afss]

I think most of the brands you can get are ok. I have heard that some people have problems with switching salt brands, and most people have their favorites, but i personally think its in their heads. IMO the slight variations btw any of the brands should be so minimal that as long as you have a balanced set up you shouldn't have a problem.

Now if you were to change all of the water at once you may have problems.. but i think this would be more from the changing of that much water then from the changing of the brand of salt.

Scott:cheers:

[jdair101]

OK then.
I'll get another bucket tomorrow and see what happens.

[Mitchell]

but i personally think its in their heads

your on crack :D

Seriously, I think it's all personnel preference, but if you can afford it I would stick with the Tropic Marine. It is nice salt.

Have you tried a 2 part additive such as B-Ionic?
You may want to give it a try. It will help increase your cal and alk.
Keep us updated.

[ian cooper]

From what I remember, calcium and alkalinity are related to each other so that if your alkalinity is too high (as yours seems to be) then calcium tends to precipitate out of solution, thus lowering it. Check your calcium test kit to make sure it is okay. Then add some calcium chloride (over several days) or the "A" part of a two-part calcium/alkalinity additive until your calcium is around 400 or so. Do not add any more buffer as this will continue to depress your calcium levels. Once your calcium is at 400 and your alkalinity lower (just leave alkalinity alone and it will drop by itself if you stop adding buffer), then begin using a two-part calcium/alkalinity additive, kalkwasser or whatever to maintain both the calcium and alkalinity. As for the Caribsea product, I don't think it adds much in the way of calcium or alkalinity because it does not dissolve when added to the tank water. Try adding it to your RO water (pH low enough to dissolve some of it) to boost calcium and alkalinity. Don't do this if you are using the R/O water to make kalkwasser though and don't do it until you have raised the calcium level and brought the alkalinity down to NSW levels. Hope this makes sense and is of help.

[Daniel Schubert]

I also agree with the other posts. Additionally I used to use Tropic Marin Bio Calcium but I had better results with the B-IONIC the two part system and now that is all I use. I'm still using the Tropic Marin Sea Salt, I've been pleased with the way it mixes so why change.

Daniel

[lexus]

Do a large water change because it seems your water is not ionically balanced. NSW should be around 8dkh and have 380ppm Calcium concentration. I would then use a two part additive (C-Balance or B-Ionic) to slowly bring up dkh and calcium. For some reason Tropic Marin Bio Calcium wreaks havoc with the ionic balance - I had the same problem. To quickly boost Calcium levels after a water change, use Kent Turbo Calcium. Do like-wise for dkh by using Kent Marine Buffer. However fix one thing at a time. Once you reach your target levels using this method, then use a two part additive to maintain things.

[StirCrazy]

jdair101
how old is your tank? new tanks with arganite sand beds will suck up Ca and Alk, I went throught it and I am just recovering from it now.. as well as many others.. there are several write upos on this but I can't remember who it was at this point in time when I remember the link I will post it.

Steve

[jdair101]

Did a test on my salt mix (1.023) and the calcium test turned out to be 380. I figure this is close enough. I did pick up some Kent 2 part from Big Al's in Barrie, because this is all they sell in 2 part. To get it right Ian says to put just part "A" in till the calcium level gets to 400ish. How about Kent Turbo Cal to boost it faster.
Thanks for now.

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

i would first discontinue use of tropic bio calcium as this product i dont find to be nearly as effective as any 2 part ionicly balanced additive(esv bionic,two little fishes,etc)generaly alk and calcium are directly related to each other and i would strive for at least a 11 or 12 dkh and that should give you 430 ppm ca.the magnesium levels of tropic marin salt are extremely low as well and its quite common for people using this salt along with coralife to have these problems as well.there are mag supplements available to add or switch to a better salt(instant ocean,kent) Flavio O.R.G.

[Red-Sea]

Flavio,I know you have preety good knowledge in this field but I was under the impression that Tropic Marine & Reef Crystals are two of the highest grade salt's you can buy, verses Instant Ocean or Kent Marine.
Please if you can give me a brief explanation with your experiance regarding these salt mix. :thumbsup:

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

basicaly instant ocean makes kent and other private label salts,they were the first synthetic salt mfg,reef crystals is instant oceans "higher end"salt as they say it has more trace elemants added but at a much higher cost.there are much better salts,the best on the market is bio marine which is almost impossibe to get in the u.s.,never mind canada.hawaian marine is good as well.these salts are double in cost to what we pay now.for the common salts instant in my opinion is the best,im not partial to tropic marin for reef tanks because of magnesium levels being low,then again even instant ocean has dis-propertionate levels as well (barium 13000 ppm)per ron shimek.very high.red sea hasnt been out long enough to get reviews,i have heard more bad than good amongst the industry,id be interested to know what hobbyists think.there is a web site that had a review of every salt mafgd on the market analyzed by an indepedant lab,ill see if i can dig it up,youll be surprised. Flavio

[Mitchell]

Flavio
if you could find that page, it would be greatly appreciated.

I would be interested to find out the results because that fine gentleman who sold me my first piece of liverock ( you know the story :D ) also told me that T.M. WAS the best salt out there for a reef tank. I personally use I.O. due to it's cost but was considering switching back to T.M. on the new tank. Mabey I'll just stay with I.O.

[ajx22]

For those of you interested...here is the paper/report (or one of the best that I have found) that Flavio mentioned above.

It is a report called "The Composition Of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes" and was published (AQUARIUM FRONTIERS - MARCH 1999) as a co-operative effort from both MARLIN ATKINSON AND CRAIG BINGMAN. This analysis was conducted independantly at the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology.

The results are of a head-to-head comparison (NSW - Natural Sea Water - being the reference point) of the following 8 brands of commercial synthetic seawater mixes:

Instant Ocean
Tropic Marin
HW Marine Mix
Reef Crystals
Red Sea Salt
Kent
Coralife
SeaChem

Being aware that most of the German/European aquarium supplies were superior to their North American competitors, I too used Tropic Marin as my choice of synthetic salt mix. Once I read this report, I could no longer substantiate the extra money for the Tropic Marin - for no measureable benefits (though there are some definite negatives as Flavio has mentioned). I now use Instant Ocean in all my tanks - and have had no ill effects during the switch-over (gradual via normal bi-weekly water changes) or at any point since the switch. I have however, had better results with keeping my calcium level where I want them (± 450 ppm).

Either way...I hope that this link helps you out.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

Best regards always,

[Red-Sea]

Thanks for a quick reply Flavio, I'll do little more research on it when I have some free time, I remember reading an article that compared diferent salt's on one of German web site's as well but can't recall where, but since I curently use Instant Ocean I guess I'll stick with it. Thanks again:cheers:

[Red-Sea]

Sorry AJ, lookes like I missed the last post that was your reply about the salt's, thanks for your input & appriciate the link as well...:D

[Brian L]

I wouldn't get too concerned with a salt brand name when it comes to the chemistry of alkalinity and calcium. Most salt mixes will provide the required calcium to keep a tank within acceptable limits. The chemistry occurs after the water is added to the tank. There is a constant shift between alkalinity and calcium. It is primarilly a function of pH. Magnesium, strontium, etc are small players in the equation.

I used B-ionic to achieve this in my tank and would like to order a gallon of each. I've never used them at the recommended dosages, and did supplement with kalk for pH.

Salt brand matters little, every tank is different.

afishwish

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

sorrry but i disagree,most salt mixes will give you 340 ppm ca if your lucky, once the water hits your tank,with no calcium added you would read about 260 ppm .we strive for 425 ppm and up for calcium.although most salts will give you minimum if not more trace elements,magnesium is a key item when trying to keep ca up.there also shouldnt be a constant swing in alk and ca in your tank,levels should be steady at 425,450 ppm ca and 12 dkh.different salts will give you varying degrees of minor and major trace elements. Flavio

[Brian L]

As stated, supplemental additions of Kalc and B-Ionic were the routine for that particular tank. Point is when WE buy salt and strive for OUR 425 ppm, and 50 ppm craps out in the bucket we could have used the cheapest salt out there and achieved the same results. Perhaps you misunderstood, but the point was that the battle with chemistry of pH/alk/and Ca levels does not a salt mix fix. If that were the case, we would not have wasted the thousands of dollars we all hve in contraptions to control it. Sure they should all be consistent parameters, but how many of us have maintained them at 100% while learning this hobby.

On magnesium, we'll disagree. It does not offer any proven buffering capacity in a tank will high calcium levels. It does not participate to any extent in the carbonate/bicarbonate equilibrium. It also does not participate in any of the precipitation reactions that naturally consume the calcium in a reef tank.

Please don't tell me you supplement magnesium.

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

i still dont understand how 50 ppm of calcium dissipitates in your buckest of holding salt,this is not posssible unless being consumed,calcium will not evaporate in a holding container.i didnt say magnesium is a buffer for calcium but it is a biulding block of calcium,any chemistry book will tell you this.if your magnesium levels are low,it will be difficult to achieve and maintain calcium,i see this quite regurlalry on tanks with people using tropic salt.when they add magnesium these problem stop.i dont have this problem because i use a different salt brand with higher mag content. Flavio

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Brian L
On magnesium, we'll disagree. It does not offer any proven buffering capacity in a tank will high calcium levels. It does not participate to any extent in the carbonate/bicarbonate equilibrium. It also does not participate in any of the precipitation reactions that naturally consume the calcium in a reef tank.

Please don't tell me you supplement magnesium.

well you are kinda off the wall a bit here.. YES THERE IS a coralation between Mg and Ca, and several well respected authors have writen on it.. to maintaina spicific Ca level your Mg must be roughly 3X the level od Ca you desire.. if iut is low you will not be able to keep the Ca in solution.

Mg actualy coats the Ca preventing it from combininb with other elaments and being taken out of solution.. I just went through this with my tank.. with Mg levels below 800ppm I could not get my Ca over 280 ppm nor could I get my Alk over 3. As I increased my Mg my Ca levles started to increase also and my Alk increased even faster. right now I am at 1200ppm Mg and my Ca is at 400ish.. Idealy your Mg should be bebetween 1200 and 1400ppm the later being the value of NSW.

It has also been documented that in a effort to save a bit of money and maximize profit that some of the top names of salt brand have decreased the Mg content in there salts.. this led to a rash of low Ca problems all over.. if you are having a low Ca problem that doesen't seam right.. get the Mg levles of some faily fresh mixed salt water checked.. I can say the IO is proper.. comes out to just over 1400ppm when I mix my water.

need more proof of this.. look on the back of a container of Kent turbo Ca.. hey I will quote it for you !

"If you have trouble maintaining calcium or buffer level, check to see that the salt mix you are using has seawater levels of magnesium (some popular newer salts have only half the level of magnesium necessary, resulting in low calcium solubility and poor buffering)"

now as I stated befor I have showen through weekly water tests that raising Mg in a Mg deficient tank does allow you to brignt up both Ca and Alk.

[Brian L]

Boys, boys. Still tinkering with high scool chemistry, I see. Lets back up. I didn't say that 50 ppm of calcium "dissipates" in my bucket. As an ion it cannot. Done here. Still depends on pH, though.

On the magnesium, you make me laugh. One element cannot be a 'building block' for another. Please show any basic chemistry text that says that. Yes, because calcium and magnesium are similar cations, they have similar physical properties; but, in our environment, they are very different.

So, to contiune, I would enjoy reading some of the material from such well respected authors who say that magnesium coats calcium. I'd like to see the chemical reaction for that! So I guess I'm off the wall he? That really takes the cake.

Lets do some chemistry. What ions produce alkalinity? Ca++, HCO3-, H2CO3,CO3--. Gee, didn't see an Mg in there anywhere.

Ok, I'll give you this. I use IO. I know that it has magnesium in it. I know that magnesium contributes to the TDS (total dissolved solids... or conductivity) of the water. It's a good thing, but certainly should never be an issue with proper maintenance and water changes.

Well, I know why I don't come here often. Boy's best dig there heads out of their *****. I think I even read that if magnesium was not 3X calcium, the calcium would precipitate. Thats a good one.

Whats your pH and alkalinity? How do you maintain it and how do you measure it? I can extrapolate most other information from these two questions.

Thats my first question when someone has a problem with low calcium levels which was the originators problem.

Hope somehow this helped that guy.

Don't get too hung up on the salt and the magnesium. You'll find all kinds else to give you problems. Use a good one, by all means. Do water changes and you'll be fine.

[StirCrazy]

you know it was hardly even worth the effort to copy these links to show some one as closed minded as yourself but so other who haven't read them won't take your attatude as gosple here they are.

Mg part 1 (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/bio/default.asp)

Mg part 2 (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/apr/bio/default.asp)

Magnesium Ion Precipitation in Aquaria. (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/jul/bio/default.asp)

Steve

[jdair101]

Hi remember me
I see my simple question (at least I though so) was more complicatered than I though. I didn't think it would get fellow reefers fighting from coast to coast. Anyway all of you have been a big help and I see every one wants the facts not just one persons feelings.

[Oakville Reef Gallery]

i wasnt going to respond again,but you are still mistaken brian, and the results of high school chemistry and advanced would be the same .i could go into a whole chemical composition of calcium,ions,etc,but you seem to have your mind made up,this isnt even a matter of opinion as chemistry is science and id like to see where your getting your information...anyways, merry christmas and happy new year to all, Flavio. org

[Brian L]

Precisely jdair,

And since this is a beginners forum you'll be amazed at what so called experienced reef keepers will come up with to spend their money on next.

I'm not fighting with anyone, but I have seen this time and again. If you chase every mystery, or had the time to, you likely wouldn't be able to sustain this hobby to begin with. It's a hobby where you could try every gimmic to come along, juice that tank 'till you didn't know if you were coming or going... then be dissapointed in the end.

I read the article on magnesium precipitates. Read it for yourself and determine what research is proving. To me, most of the mag compounds are either unstable, unpredictable, or extreemly slow depleters in our environment. How many times does the author admit that this is mostly theory or unproven experimentation. Granted the calcium/ mag 'mixup' was valid to me. Sure, they're next to each other on the periodic table and as I stated earlier, share some common properties.

I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion. :cheers:

[Brian L]

Thanks for the wishes, and the same to you. I simply try to keep this deal as simple as possible. I've been doing water chemistry for a long time. I don't like making things mysterious.

In chemistry, words mean little. Trash talk and what not mean less. Show me the chemical reaction and I'll at least look. We can still keep reef tanks without a degree in chemistry.

Merry Christmas,

Brian