Ichy Day From Hell - Help!

[aquagrl]

Just in the middle of celebrating how great everything looks with my new MH, I notice that both my Regal Tang and my Bicolour Blennie have ich. Took a vacation day from work, set up the 10 gal QT and ended up tearing all the rock down to catch those two! After re-arranging my rock and seriously disturbing the other inhabitants, the tang and blennie were in the QT. Blennie looked dead. Tang was going crazy. I'm afraid to see what tomorrow brings.

My question - rather than subjecting the fish to copper - I am going to try gradually raising the temp (80 - 82F), lowering the salinity to 1.019 and feeding the anti-parasite medicated food by Jungle Labs. Has anyone ever done this? This product is also supposed to be a reef-safe prophylaxis your the main tank as well.

My goal is to get the fish better and out of QT. If copper is the way to go, I want to go there. If this other method has potential, please let me know.

FYI - garlic has done nothing in terms of preventing ich IMO. I've been feeding my fish raw garlic at least twice a week for months. The tang and blennie, in particular, loved it! So there you go.

Thanks.

[diemaker]

i gave my tang a fresh water dip for 10 min and all was well no problems again that was 3mths ago

[Ricar]

no cleaner shrimp? I've heard that they can clean up ich.

[aquagrl]

I have a Toby and a Hawkfish. My understanding is that the Toby can't tolerate cleaner shrimp (no scales) and that the Hawkfish will eat them.


As the two fish are aleady in QT, I'd appreciate any input as to what to do next. QT tank parameters are the same as the main (for now). Copper/No Copper? Lower Salinity/Keep it the same?

I just don't want them to suffer QT without positive action.

You know, from the posts I've noticed that the 4th month is usually when all of the nasty stuff starts to happen. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

[Ricar]

well don't know about the toby and I thought most fish would tolerate a cleaner (not eat them) if they used them, unless the cleaner became a pest. I don't know if you want to try a single in your tank, I have a betta about 7" that hasn't eaten my blood or pepermint shrimp, although eats ghost shrimp like mad. I've used copper before and had no trouble but a fresh water dip seems like maybe less stressful. You could also put a cleaner shrimp in your QT tank with your meds, however ick can get into your rock which your quarantine tank wouldn't help.

[janus]

Absolutely. You cannot put the fish back in the display tank until a full life cycle of the parasite has passed. This is usually 3-4 weeks, but can be accelerated by elevated temps. The parasite dies without a fish host to feed upon, so if all the fish are out of the tank, the parasite is wiped out.

You've probably had ich since you brought your fish home, it was just kept at bay by the fish's own defenses. But if one fish gets stressed, it will get a large number of parasites on it. This allows the population to explode, causing previously healthy fish to become infested by sheer volume of attacking bugs.

FW dips are good, but the will only kill the bugs on the outside of the fish. No known treatment can get at the organisms when they are burrowed into the flesh feeding. The QT water still contains others. So the dips may cause more harm than good (stressing the fish). Keeping lower salinity in the QT as a whole is better. 1.015 is a good number, this interferes with the breeding cycle of the parasite and reduces osmotic pressure on the fish, allowing it to stay stronger while weakening the parasites

I recommend medicating the QT (moderately). There are other treatments than copper, but copper is sure-fire. :guns:

Most importantly, treat for long enough to ensure the QT and the display tank are ich free -6 weeks to be sure. A 10 gallon might not suffice though...unless you do lots of water changes and watch out for nitrogen cycling.

Good luck!!

:cheers2:

[aquagrl]

Thank you all for your words of advice. I will begin to lower the SG and raising the temp tonight. I wanted to give them a day to sort-of acclimate to the QT. I understand that copper is the best for getting rid of the parasites however have also heard that it's not well tolerated by tangs (or clowns that are still in the main tank - parasite-free for now...). I've also read that the minimum maintanence level for copper is between .20 and .25 ppm for 3 weeks. I'm considering the SG route first as I also understand that copper also suppresses the fishes appetites. The two fish were eating like pigs before I put them in QT and now are now so stressed they're not eating at all.

[lotus02]

Aquagrl
All those fish in a 10gal QT my cause more stress. I would try and find a larger tank, or that hippo is not going to be happy, you will loose it for sure.
Also put some rock or large ABS pipe for fish to hide in , hippos donot like to be wide open.
Good Luck ick is a pain to get rid of.

[aquagrl]

At this point, only the blennie and hippo are in the QT. I was advised by my LFS that it would be less stressful to keep the symptom-free fish in the main tank. I do know it would be best to rid the entire tank of the disease but am so confused by the number of treatment recommendations out there - even among the various moderators on wetwebmedia - use copper/don't use copper/use formalin/don't use medication/dip/don't dip. Should the worse happen (heaven forbid) and I loose all my finny friends I think I'll stick to corals only as it's easier to keep a detached clinical perspective IMO. Thank God I'm only a medical illustrator and not a medical doctor!!

[jtremblay]

Hi,

Keeping your "unaffected" fish in your tank is a bad idea. First, they probably do have the parasite, just in their gills where you can't see it. That means the parasite has a host and can keep on going through its life cycle.

When you put your fish (now in QT) back into the display, they probably won't be in the best of shape -- big fish in a small tank means you will have terrirtory and water quality issues. You can successfully treat your fish with 2 weeks' worth of copper treatments. But how long will they remain without ich in your display?

FWIW, here is the definitive reading list on ich (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282934).

Also keep in mind that there is an abundance of myths and bad info floating around the web (and LFSs). However, the info in RC's thread is, AFAIK, the only systematic attempt to describe everything biologists know about ich and package it up for hobbyists.

[Ricar]

if you put rock in copper DO NOT put it back in your main tank EVER!!! it will absorb copper than can leach it back into your tank and can kill your inverts and corals. I don't know about 3 weeks in copper as it is very hard on the liver. I think 0.5 ppm 2 weeks is good but I guess it depends on the copper you use.

[janus]

Agreed, you shouldn't medicate for the entire time in the QT. And you should not put anything back in the display from a medicated tank (except the fish).

The two most important things are to put ALL the fish in QT (and yes you will need a bigger tank). Also you MUST allow enough time for all the living parasites in the display to go through a complete life-cycle, and finding no fish as a host, die.

The type of medication is debateable, but .30 copper is the best, though probably the most dangerous.

Alternately, I have used Kick-Ich in the display tank (its actually coral/invert safe, relatively) and that pretty much took care of it. There were still minor outbreaks, but it was under control. This is inefficient and expensive, however, as you will not elimate all the parasites.

Again, good luck

[aquagrl]

Thanks again for your input. I've determined a protocol with which to move forward based on all my reading and generous input and will post the outcome.

A couple of other questions:

- How do you entice your fish to feed in QT?

- How do you raise the pH in your fresh (top-up) water to 8.2+?

- How do you maintain a pH of 8.2+ in your main tank?

- I have been supplementing my tank with B-Ionic 2 part once per week for two weeks (dKH 12/calcium 425). With these readings, should I continue the once-weekly routine or is it negatively affecting my pH?

Thank you all soooo much.

[janus]

Your fish will take some time to adjust. They will be OK without much food for a couple days. Be careful to remove uneaten food, water quality is already going to be a problem in a QT.

Your top-off water should always be 7.0 - that is pure water. Unless...

Are you using Kalkwasser? I have the same size tank as you, and used a similar buffering substance, but I couldnt get the ph stable over 8.0 until I started using Kalk as well. You can actually top off your tank with Kalk, and then only dose the buffer until you get to the desired Ph. After that only ad buffer sparingly, or if you notice your ph start to fall off. You need a Ph of around 8.3-8.4 for optimal calcification.

BTW what protocol have you decided on for you icky fish?

Cheers

[aquagrl]

I assumed that using pure (de-chlorinated) top-up water with a pH of 7.0 would negatively affect the pH in the main tank. That's good to know. One less thing to worry about!


After one day in QT, there has not been an increase in number of spots on the tang. The blennie never did have spots, but was scratching and appeared to have redness around the gills (hard to tell on a fish that small). Both are skitterish (which is totally understandable) but active.

I've decided to go with the lowest risk route in terms of treatment as both fish were swimming and eating well prior to QT:

- slowly lowering SG from 1.024 to 1.015, utilizing increasingly dilute saltwater solutions, over a 3 day period
- keeping temperature at 78 degrees
- adding Seachem metronidazole every two days (as directed on label)
- feeding sparingly (removing uneaten food) and providing Zoe-soaked nori on clip
- and, if all goes well, keeping them there for 3 weeks to 4 weeks - gradually increasing the SG to match that of the main tank during the final week.

I'm assuming that this whole affair was caused by discustingly dirty input and output lines from my canister filter. Although I replace filter pads on a weekly basis and maintain the inside of the canister, over a 4 month period, the lines were never cleaned. I assumed the slightly cloudier water over the last couple of weeks was caused by the introduction of phytoplankton feeding as all parameters tested fine. Lines have now been replaced and the water is once again crystal clear. Real good lesson!! All fish, inverts and corals remaining in main tank show no signs of distress or illness at this point - even after the massive tank re-arrangement they went through. True, this will not rid the main tank of ich, but I'm hoping that better housekeeping in the future will help minimize it's appearance.

I can always move to more drastic measures should this not work, rather than hit the fish with the big gun right off.

[janus]

Fair enough, but I doubt your lines caused the problem.

If you aren't going for complete eradication, I wouldn't even bother with the QT for so long. There's no point.

But I can almost guarantee the fish in the QT will get ich just as bad if not worse once put back in the display if you do nothing there.

In this scenario, I would suggest the Kick-ich stuff I mentioned before. At least treat the main tank with it, so when the really sick fish come back in, they wont be pounced on immediately. Kick ich takes a couple of weeks to run through a treatment cycle, so you should start now. You can get it at big al's or probably anywhere else. Another option is just to put everyone back in the display, and treat with kick ich, cause it will be easier on you and your fish not to put them in a 10G QT, when already weakened.

It worked for me, but i have seen some who have thier doubts, most notably WetWebMedia. They dont like metronidazole either, as it is extremely toxic. "Good company, good products... but don't suggest this approach. Metronidazole is quite toxic to fishes, other marine life BTW"

Again, medicine is debatable, so you're right in trying to go easy.

Its a tough problem, with lots of conflicting info. The best way to attack is to learn the biology of the parasite, and act accordingly. That's half the fun of this hobby anyway


:fate:

[Ricar]

just MO, I like to top up the QT with tank water. that way the water in the QT is as close to your main tank as possible, then just add new H2O to your main as needed.

[Ricar]

also ich won't come from your lines it has to come from fish or recently added rock. It will survive on rock for limited time. can also come from (I've heard) live brine shrimp, or other infected live food. but NOT just from dirty lines.

[aquagrl]

In that case, it could have been from the two pieces of live rock I added recently. The timing of this outbreak is about right as I haven't seen even a spec of ich before. I was unaware that cured live rock needed quarantine as I assumed that the parasite only was introducable by new fish. So many variables, so many valuable lessons to learn.


How do you quarantine corals/mushrooms that come on rock or otherwise?

[janus]

Buy uncured rock, and cure it yourself. Cheaper that way too. Takes about a month, so any ich will be dead.

[aquanut40]

Hello

Your salinity level will need to be lower then 1.015 to have any effect on ich. If you plan on doing a hypo treatment you will need a salinity of no more to 1.009 for at least 4 weeks. you will also need a very accurate way of reading salinity, anything higher then 1.009 will not rid you of all the parasites.

Stan

[janus]

I agree. I know I said 1.015 before, but that was not intended as an eradication strategy, just to put less stress on the fish, and weaken the ich

How well to marine fish tolerate brackish water? Ive heard they are quite tolerant, but I would fear stressing the fish in such hyposaline water.

However, I just did my homework, and now I couldnt agree more.

Check out this article: http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/reducing_losses_with_transport.html

Its rather longish, but also gives a fascinating perspective on the difficulties of importing livestock. It states that most teleost (bony) fishes should be fine for extended periods in very hyposaline water. Closer to isotonic (internal and external osmotic pressure balanced) is better for stress relief, but for killing ich, it can be even lower without harm. It gives a figure of 1.010, but I think 1.009 will be OK. Slowly drop the salinity over a couple days.

Be very careful about reacclimating the fish to NSW salinity, as this is the most dangerous part. Do this over about a week (at least several days).

Cheers

Daryl

[Ricar]

cured rock is a load of crap. there is no such thing. Unless you could fly to Fiji and put a peice in a bucket with a pump and heater get it home and add it to your tank you WILL have dieoff meaning you WILL have to cure your rock. also with the crap in most lfs you dont want to contaminate your tank with that. I like to put it in a separate tank with pep shrimp to get the apstatia and parasites off b4 going it to my main tank.