Sea swirls DIY

[Mitchell]

Here are a few links to some sea swirl plans.

All you DIY's can take a look and build me a few :D ahhummmm scotty ole pal :D

Need to translate

http://members.tripod.com.br/jkiller/gira_diy.htm

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=127345

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/pages/index.htm

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=82586&highlight=diy

[Dman]

Nice sleuthing, Coralmorphian

Lucky Scott. :D

Dman
:spin:

[afss]

you got me thinking.. I'll have to spend some time on this one. I am not sure if i would have all the stuff you ned for tools etc.

Maybe after the move:D

[ReefVan]

:) afss,

Well, nice to see that my dastardly deeds have won me infamy on a Canadian board.

The pics and pages on my website and RC were much better until major legal action was threatened down in the good 'ol US, against RC because of their location on US soil.

What seems to have come to light since then is that some of the older reefers remember the AquaGate II out of southern California. (the grand-daddy of all rotating return devices)

Apparently right after AquaGate went out of business, the Sea-Swirl jumped in to take it's place with a promptly applied for US patent.

A fellow reefer buddy of mine in Montreal, used to own two Aquagates, he said upon opening them that it's the same thing but that the Sea-Swirl is in a better package with better innards.

The AquaGate II apparently was not patented in the US or anywhere else for that matter. This would make it "prior art" to the US patent office just the same.

So much for all those holier than thou individuals on Reef Central who ranted about theft of intellectual property and that posting some one else's ideas on the 'net without their permission was tantamount to theft of intellectual property.

Until I get some pics of an AquaGate's innards, all I got is the word of other people. If it's shown that its the same then so much for my Sea-Squirrel encroaching on Sea-Swirls patent, which I don't believe it does anyway.

If not then it was all great fun just the same.

p.s - Ever noticed how everytime a Sea-Swirl's inner's pictures are posted on the 'net somewhere, legal action is threatened to have them immediately removed? Someone sure doesn't want the comsumers paying $300.00 Cdn for this thing to know what's in there! ;)

Just expressing my humble opinion.

[afss]

Welcome to the board ReefVan

I am not sure of what AJ's (owner) stance is on posting stuff like this. He may have the same concerns that RC has. I personally don't see the difference between other DIY projects that are modified versions of brand names and this. Why it always seems to be different with SeaSwirl is beyoned me (never understood law well). If AJ permits you to post the info you have it would be great. If he doesn't permit it I would be interesting in hearing more about it off board. afnss@cogeco.ca
Thanks

Again welcome to Aquarium pros

Scott

[ReefVan]

:) Scott,

Not to worry I won't being posting anything on the subject anytime soon, on-line or off.

If anyone out there has an AquaGate I would be extremely interested in either viewing the unit or seeing photos of the interior and mechanism. It is after all un-patented to my knowledge.

This issue never came up in the RC threads on the subject. I wonder why? Is that why the pics of the Sea-Swirl interior and mechanism are always yanked? Is this the "prior art" that endangers their patent?

IMHO there is an issue here to be resolved, it's not personal or anything like that, everyone has the right to earn a living, it's just I don't think the hobbyist should be played for a fool like this, with constant gag orders.

To use a pun, "something fishy is going on here"!

p.s - The patent is US and is valid in the continental US and it's territories, last time I checked we hadn't fallen into either category, yet...

This is only my humble opinion.

[ReefVan]

:dance:

The goodies have arrived. ;)

This pic of an AquaGate II circa 1996-1998 was promptly yanked within 24 hours of its posting on Reef Central yesterday. :rolleyes:

Someone took exception to the fact that this "prior art" closely resembled their product. :mad:

You judge for yourself...

AquaGate

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/aquagate_2_800.jpg

Another similar product

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/ss_patent_actual.jpg

My DIY Sea-Squirrel

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/dsc00151.jpg

[Mitchell]

cool

how much do you charge for one of your DIY swirls

[ReefVan]

:) Neat eh?

So far I'm only inventing DIY, will post plans soon when I have time to put all the instructions together on a web page.

If you want one you'll have to build one. I don't have the time to do anything except tinker and invent in my spare time. Sorry...

In the mean time I've invented 2 other rotating return unit types, visit my web page.

Van
:dance: :dance: :dance:

[afss]

ready and waiting for the info:D

If this gets taken off this site for some reason please contact me personally at afnss@cogeco.ca

Thanks
Scott

[ReefVan]

Having this removed from this site shouldn't be an issue.

This website is on Canadian soil and as such U.S patent law is to protect patents in the continental U.S and its territories, they don't have jurisdiction here. We are not American, yet...

The law in this country also doesn't lend the courts to being tied up sueing every Tom, Dick and Harry for everything like in the States.

The use of a legal threat to shutup people on-line in the U.S is so prevalent that many states now have SLAPP legislation which allows for the people threatening to be dealt with by counter-suit. (Which is usually successful I might add)

Ultimately the decision lays with whether A.J feels comfortable with this, this is his decision.

Van

[afss]

absolutely.. but if for any reason you don't get to post it please e-mail me with the info

[ReefVan]

One of my latest RRU (Rotating Return Unit) inventions, presently in testing, will be in production soon.

Reef-Rat 1.0 - Finished Product
http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/dsc00507.jpg

Reef-Rat 1.0 - Internal Workingshttp://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/dsc00517.jpg

[Red-Sea]

ReefVan, very impressive, let us know when you have them up for sale & how much would it cost I'll be interested in 2 units.:dance:

[ajx22]

ReefVan...

Please do keep up posted for sure!!!!!

I would be interested in a couple units myself!

[Mitchell]

WOW :eek1: :eek1:

Just recieved an email from the maker of these units.

$250.00 for 1?????????????????????????


Thought this was DIY, not retail.

I'll buy a sea swirl for $269.00 and have the piece of mind that it's from a time tested manufacturer and has a warranty.

[ajx22]

Originally posted by Mitchell
WOW :eek1: :eek1:

Just recieved an email from the maker of these units.

$250.00 for 1?????????????????????????


Thought this was DIY, not retail.

I'll buy a sea swirl for $269.00 and have the piece of mind that it's from a time tested manufacturer and has a warranty.

Reef Van...

I would have to agree with Mitch on this thus far.

What is your reasoning for the price? You were condemning Sea Swirl for selling their units for nearly $300 CAD...yet you are selling your units for only a few dollars less?

Can you please elaborate on your reasons and justifications?

TIA

[stephane]

The real sea swirl are 259$ from mops mitch! http://www.mops.on.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/cgi-bin/smpagegen.exe?U+scstore+rjtg9835ff066c06+-p+-c+scstore.cfg+WMAC-SS07

[ReefVan]

Mitchell,

Your reply was a part of a market survey to probe for price range reaction and feedback. What you were quoted was not the price range other respondents was, yet they came back with with an argument and counter offer.

You were one of the few who chose not reply back. Instead you chose to discuss your dissatisfaction with my pricing on-line in a public forum in a thread for DIY. Had you replied back perhaps you would have found out differently and been in agreement

A.J,

Your reply was received this morning and you'll find your updated info in my e-mail reply.

Stephane,

You did receive the most recent pricing and yet you compare a 3/4" Sea-Swirl @ $259 with a 1" Rat @ $175 -$200. Why not use the 1" Sea-Swirl @ $299 vs the 1" Rat @ $175-$200? Compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.
You wanted 8 units and yet did you come back with a counter-offer? No ... Maybe you were expecting them for cost? The point is moot now ...

For you all,

Forum etiquette usually dictates that all commercial or financial discussions between individuals take place in PM or e-mail. The fact that 3 forum admins from various BBS's chose to express their frustration on-line in lieu of answering back with their e-mail, shows a lack of good judgement on their part. Sorry guys but it sits there before us all in black & white...

Just expressing my humble opinion.

Communication guys, not bashing, will get you what you want.

Van

[stephane]

Van I have not bash you in anyway just quote micht the sea swirrl are 259$ at mops

I was not even aware that your unit was bigger cause mops only sale the 3/4 and the 1/2 and read my post I never compare it to anyting

I have ask you for a price and you say 250$ for one or 450$ for 2 and i say no tanks

I have ask you for a price and you give me your quote I respect you price. I will not argu or even offer you a lower price cause It's not my intent to do an auction just buy a piece of equipement.


I dont yink there anyting more to say

[Mckitrick]

Hey ReefVan,

I can understand your frustration with people "bashing" you over pricing, but I think you'd be better off by just taking your cost, come up with a markup and use that number consistantly.

I know if I had purchased something off of Bob for $100 and then I found out Ted got the same thing from Bob for only $75, I'd be a little upset about it.

In the case of someone like Stephane who's buying 5+, you can cut him a little deal because he's going to resell anyway and needs some leeway.

I guess what I'm saying is that trying to haggle and get the maximum possible out of people is inevitably going to result in situations such as these.

Pick a price, stick to it and if someone doesn't like it, they can try and find it elsewhere, right? :)

By The way, thank you for providing info on how to build these. As much as I'd like to try, I doubt I'd be able to source the parts.

[Mitchell]

ReefVan

My apoligies. :sorry:

No where in your email though, was it stated that it was a
" market survey"

had it said that, I would have emailed you back to let you know that I thought it was too high ( IMO )

[ReefVan]

At the end of the day this is a DIY project for those of you who wish to try their hand at it.

Paul_BB_Guy,

Even if I provided the parts in a kit with almost all the holes pre-drilled, would it be worth my time? Another hour and I'd have it built. This isn't a model or a picnic table, it's a complex mechanical device. How could you warranty something like this that you hadn't put together yourself?

I agree, make a price and stick to it. As such, my next foray into market research will be a clearly worded survey.

I will admit I've had good response to my e-mails so far. It looks promising and there is a definite market for this item.

The grey zone between retail and DIY is a difficult one to define. Although I invented this device, what is the difference between my device and that of a company? Both were invented, does it make one any less unique, valuable or better than another?

Give me your feedback...

Van

[Harky]

ReefVan....

Just curious as I was also following your thread over at Canreef....

Canreef (www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3523&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15)

in your earlier posts you mention that you were going to be providing a parts list for creating the unit that you now have. I did not follow any www's, but just wondering if you have the full parts list available?

also, you figured that you could build the unit for $40.00 in parts, do you still think someone could do it for that if they had a 4 RPM motor available?


thanks
Hark

[ReefVan]

Harky,

Been real busy lately with other things other than to try to detail instructions on the Rat build. Sorry about that, if you're interested and visit my site you'll see other RRU build instructions.

A 4 rpm motor might be too fast for this type of project but then again you could always try.

As far as $40.00 to build a Rat? It's possible if you find a really cheap motor at a surplus store. Otherwise if you have to go retail on all the pieces, it'll set you back around $90.00 for parts.

Still beats $300.00 plus tax for a Sea-Swirl, if your DIY skills are up to it.

Van :cool:

[ReefVan]

Just a little update so you can see the improved ReefRat

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00800.jpg

Rats ready for a new home with a reefer buddy here in Montreal

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00798.jpg

Mounting hardware in place

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00796.jpg

Interchangeable Jet-Nozzle in place

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00795.jpg

Bottom View fully assembled

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00793.jpg

Mounted Rat - Side View on 220 gal in garage

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00792.jpg

Mounted Rat - Offset View on 220 gal in garage

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00789.jpg

Prototype/Endurance Rat at play – 2 rpm model @ 1100 gph

http://pages.infinit.net/lambertv/images/DSC00791.jpg

Prototype/Endurance Rat at play – 2 rpm model @ 1100 gph

Van