Should I QT the sick Powder Blue?

[static416]

I got a powder blue tang about 2 weeks ago along with 3 anthias. He was super healthy when I got him, with no signs of Ich.

I didn't QT the anthias and they got a little Ich but it went away.

I QT'd the powder blue, and noticed at that point that he wasn't taking prepared foods. He'd eat fresh macro algae, but that was it. So after a little more than I week I was worried about his eating only the macro and put him in the 90gal with the anthias where there is more to graze on.

Well he's been in there for about 3 days, and is showing signs of Ich. The anthias are still fine. My question is, should I put him back in the QT and risk him starving? Or should I leave him where he can graze and risk him dying of Ich?

The problem is that even if I QT him for 4 weeks and he doesn't starve, is it still probable that he will get Ich anyway when I put him into the 90gal?

And if you have anything to say, say it right away, because I want to make a decision by tomorrow if possible.

Opinions anybody?

[Reef Mike]

I would leave him... Powder Blues get Ick all the time...

Mike

[Daniel Schubert]

I would leave him also, if you move him again he will not make it, feed Nori (Try green, red and purple seaweed he may take to one easier then the other) When I introduced mine that was all he would eat, after about 2-3 months he started to eat some of the other foods. He's a real picky eater

[static416]

So you guys think I should just leave him alone and see what happens? Anybody think thats a bad idea? I'm starting to think I should just leave him in there and see if he fights it off on his own. Most of the people I've talked to who have Powder Blues say that theirs get Ich once in awhile and that it just goes away by itself if everything else is okay.

But he is still super healthy (other than the Ich) and is strangely not scared of me at all. He's out at the front of the tank all the time and is very active. He's already gained back some of the weight he lost in the QT tank from picking at the tons of red and green macro algaes on my live rock.

Do you guys have any other ideas about foods I can try? I've tried chopped krill, whole krill, brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, flake food, green nori, scallops and pacific salmon and he hasn't even tried to eat any of it. He always seems to get much more active and excited when I put the food in, but doesn't try any of it.

Thanks for the advice so far, keep it coming! :)

[Chrismo]

Only quarentine him if you can QT and treat all your fish with him for 4-5 weeks, otherwise he will just get ich again. If you QT for 4-5 weeks ich will be gone forever.

[Daniel Schubert]

As I mention above mine would only eat Nori (Seaweed). I would get a couple of veggie clips and place various types of Nori around the tank. He will do better in the main tank then a QT tank. He needs the rock to grace on. And taking him out now would do more harm then good

Good article on ich can be found
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm

[Daniel Schubert]

Only quarentine him if you can QT and treat all your fish with him for 4-5 weeks, otherwise he will just get ich again. If you QT for 4-5 weeks ich will be gone forever.

I'm sorry Chrismo but I have to disagree with you, ich is never really gone, it can come back due to water quality, temperature swings, stress from a tank move, etc.

[jtremblay]

I'm sorry Chrismo but I have to disagree with you, ich is never really gone, it can come back due to water quality, temperature swings, stress from a tank move, etc.

Not to start flogging a horse that's gotta be undead by now ... but Chrismo's 100% right. Ich's only host is fish. If it doesn't find a fish when it needs to, it dies. Ich's lifecycle is 4-6 weeks long. If a tank is left fishless for 6 weeks, there cannot possibly be any ich left in the tank unless it is re-introduced. Copper is 100% effective at killing ich in a QT when ich is in one of its free-swimming stages (takes about 2 weeks). Hypo, done properly, is about 99.99999% effective (there is a strain that survives hypo, but it hasn't yet hit the hobby).

Parti I (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm)
Part II (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm)

So ... you cure all your fish of the parasite (ich's first place to attack is the gills where there's little slime coat to protect the fish, so your fish might be infected without your knowing it). You leave your tank fishless for 6 weeks. Every fish that gets introduced gets QTd. At this point, you have a chance of re-introducing the parasite via coral, LR, and LS, but that chance is relatively small.

Jason

[kouma]

Not to start flogging a horse that's gotta be undead by now ... but Chrismo's 100% right. Ich's only host is fish. If it doesn't find a fish when it needs to, it dies. Ich's lifecycle is 4-6 weeks long. If a tank is left fishless for 6 weeks, there cannot possibly be any ich left in the tank unless it is re-introduced. Copper is 100% effective at killing ich in a QT when ich is in one of its free-swimming stages (takes about 2 weeks). Hypo, done properly, is about 99.99999% effective (there is a strain that survives hypo, but it hasn't yet hit the hobby).

Parti I (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm)
Part II (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm)

So ... you cure all your fish of the parasite (ich's first place to attack is the gills where there's little slime coat to protect the fish, so your fish might be infected without your knowing it). You leave your tank fishless for 6 weeks. Every fish that gets introduced gets QTd. At this point, you have a chance of re-introducing the parasite via coral, LR, and LS, but that chance is relatively small.

Jason
Agree 100%, good post.

[Reef Mike]

I agree with Daniel.. Ich is always there..

The argument presented that it only can reside in fish is accurate, but it assumes that since you see no visible symptoms sign of ich it is gone from the fish. I think most fish have ich all the time, just like we can have different infections in our body all the time and not even know it as our immune system has done its job.

Also saying that 4-6 weeks is long enough to completely irradicate something is nonsense.. There are always evolutianary exceptions and I am sure some ich can survive dormant for much longer. When it comes to biology so there are no absolutes as there are always exceptions to everything. The fact you are alive is based on millions of exceptions which have occured over the last several billion years.

Mike

[twizttid1]

Back to this ich thing....

Beyond what science tells us about this parasite...

I think that your fish are forever at risk to getting sick no matter what you do for them....

Do you think that if you put a person in a sterile room for the rest of their lives they will never get sick?? I doubt that... It's the laws of nature... this stuff will happen....

Go ahead and take all your fish out for 6 weeks.... I don't think it will make much difference, I think the risk will still be there when you reintroduce them.....

JMO

[static416]

Its kinda strange. The Ick came up pretty fast and disappeared pretty fast. The whole cycle lasted less than 2 days. I'm starting to think he fought it off, because that seems to fast for the regular lifecycle in my experience.

I mean you can still see the marks where the cysts were, but all the cysts are gone, all in one night. It seemed like they came up in the morning and disappeared that night.

I know Ick comes in cycles, its just that this cycle seems kinda fast.

Opinions?

[Chrismo]

Could be they ate their fill of tang, are now laying eggs in your sand. Maybe try vacuming your sand a bit? a long- shot for sure :)

[jtremblay]

I agree with Daniel.. Ich is always there..

The argument presented that it only can reside in fish is accurate, but it assumes that since you see no visible symptoms sign of ich it is gone from the fish. I think most fish have ich all the time, just like we can have different infections in our body all the time and not even know it as our immune system has done its job.

Also saying that 4-6 weeks is long enough to completely irradicate something is nonsense.. There are always evolutianary exceptions and I am sure some ich can survive dormant for much longer. When it comes to biology so there are no absolutes as there are always exceptions to everything. The fact you are alive is based on millions of exceptions which have occured over the last several billion years.

Mike

Got any peer-reviewed articles backing you up? Scientific data?

The articles I linked to are peer-reviewed, well researched, and well regarded.

Ich is straight-forward to cure, just like many diseases and parasites. What's so hard to accept about it? Is there ... reluctance in accepting because there's reluctance in setting up a QT?

Jason

[static416]

Well I already have the QT setup and its been running for about 2 months now, so its well cycled.

Now that I look at the Powder Blue, I think I'm going to move him back to QT for at least 4 weeks. I'm thinking that I'd rather have him die of starvation by himself then die of Ich in the display tank and possibly take out 3 or 4 fish with him in the process. I'll try feeding him the Cheato from my sump and see if I can get him to eat while I'm treating him with hypo in the QT.

Oh well, here goes, hopefully he starts eating!

[Aquadude]

Static, do you have Nori? You have to feed that tang Nori. Lots of it.

[nevareth]

I'm thinking that I'd rather have him die of starvation by himself then die of Ich in the display tank and possibly take out 3 or 4 fish with him in the process.Ich is not directly contagious from fish to fish. C. irritans has a four stage life cycle. The parasitic stage are what you see ( the white spots ). Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. After a number of days, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to re-infect.

It is highly likely that your TANK was/is suffering from a chronic low-level infestation of the parasite and the Powder Blue was infected when you introduced it to your tank. The only way to be certain that you have no Ich in your display tank is to run it FISHLESS for 4 to 6 weeks AND treat ALL your fish to copper or hyposalinity in a Hospital tank.

[static416]

AquaDude, I do have Nori and I've tried it numerous times, but he's not interested in it. He will pick at macro algae a little bit, but it still seems like he's not eating enough.

And while I know that the only way to be 100% sure I have gotten rid of the ich is to run the system fishless, thats not really possible because the anthias always hide inside of one of the large (25lbs+) pieces of rock in my display and I would have to take out that rock and treat it to get the fish, and I don't really wanna lose 25lbs of live rock.

Besides, neither the anthias nor the maroon clown are slowing any symtoms so I'm fairly sure that as long as I treat the Powder Blue for 4 or 5 weeks, I'll have eliminated the Ich.

I realize that it isn't the perfect solution, and not completely by the book, but it seems to be working and its about as good as I can do.

[Aquadude]

Have you tried soaking the Nori in fresh garlic juice from crushed garlic? Try placing some rolled up Nori under a rock so it's sticking out like a chunk of macro aglae. Can't hurt to try.

[static416]

Yeah he seems to be more interested in the macro algae when I stick it on a rock. I'll try it with the Nori again.

Once he started picking at the macro algae I tried to put some nori underneath it so maybe he'd pick at that too, but he just ignored it. I also tried squirting some mysis into the ball of macro algae to see if he'd eat it, but he ignored that too.

I haven't tried garlic yet though, I was looking for the liquid garlic extract at the grocery store and couldn't find any. I think I'll just get a clove of garlic and crush it up and soak it with the chopped krill/mysis/brine shrimp concoction I've been feeding.

[Mike]

My tangs seem to greatly prefer the "Julian Sprung's Sea Veggies" Green seaweed sheets to the nori you can get at the grocery store... not sure why, it looks like the same stuff, but 3x as expensive. You can also get red and purple, but they don't seem to like that as much. My powder blue, which I've had for just over a month now, only eats that or frozen brine shrimp. He ignores mysis, flake, etc. He's filling out rapidly, though, and appears very healthy - but he still gets ich regularly as well - usually in the mornings. It seems to be able to come and go within hours, but it doesn't appear to be affecting him very much. Maybe you might want to try the "sea veggies" variety of nori, to see if that can entice your powder blue. Good luck with him - they're a gorgeous fish.